D&D 4E Multiclass Spellcasting in 4e

[Michael Tree]

Recently there's been a lot of discussion about how people would ideally like multiclassed spellcasting to work, how they would like it to work in future editions. I've compiled the various ideas and opinions, and added a few of my own here.

A common idea is that if there is a generic spells/day chart for all spellcasters, in the same way that there is a general "iterative attacks/round" chart for combat, then spellcasting multiclassing could work the same way that all other multiclassing does - cumulatively.

If a single chart is used, then instead of unique spellcasting progressions for each class, classes have a "caster level" column, and a "spells per day" column, which indicates what row on the chart the caster uses for spell slots. For example, wizards and clerics would have +1/level in both caster level and spells/day, rangers and paladins would have +1/2 levels in both caster level and spells/day, while a bard would have +1/level caster level, but only +3/4 levels spells/day.

Non-spellcasters could then be given a "caster level" bonus of +1 per 2 or 3 levels. Fighter/Wizards and the like won't gain any more spells for non-caster levels, but they won't fall too far behind in caster level, so their spells won't be too easy to dispel or useless against opponents with SR.

The main snags with this system are how to handle the difference between vancian and spontaneous casting and how to handle different spell lists and the difference between vancian and spontaneous casting. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed has a good fix for the former, with a system that works like an amalgam of both: Characters can have big spell lists, but choose a number of spells they have available for casting every morning, like if a Sorcerer could re-choose their spells known every day from a spellbook.

How to deal with different spell lists is more complicated. Does anyone have suggestions?

Most of the other complications with D&D classes could be easily fixed with class abilities. For example, a cleric's domain spells wouldn't be on the spells/day chart, but instead the cleric would get a class ability of "Domain spell: 1st level" at 1st cleric level, "Domain spell: 2nd level" at 3rd cleric level, "Domain spell: 3rd level" at 5th cleric level, and so on. A similar class ability progression could be created for spontaneous casting of cure spells.

A sorcerer's delayed acquisition of spell levels would be handled by giving the class +0 spells/day at 3rd level instead of +1, and the greater number of spells/day overall would be handled by giving sorcerers the class ability "+2 1st level spells/day" at 1st level, "+2 2nd level spells/day" at 4th level, "+2 3rd level spells/day" at 6th level, "+2 4th level spells/day" at 8th level, and so on.

These might also solve the problem of sorcerers and clerics not giving up anything when taking prestige classes.

I personally like the way this all works together, but I may have overlooked something important.

 

[BryonD]

Are you saying that a Wiz1/Cler1 would be caster level 2 and be able to casta number of spells per day equal to a "standard 2nd level spellcaster" (probably something close to the wizard). He could then pick any combination of cleric spells and known wizard spells but the total number of spells would be the same as a normal wiz2?

So if I am a wiz 9 and I gain a level and I take a level of cleric, does that mean I can suddenly cast 5th level cleric spells?

 

[BryonD]

How would you do high ability bonus spells?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Nice, but it would require quite an overhaul of the recent class balance....

For instance, Paladins/Rangers getting no spellcasting power until about 4th level, and then being 2nd caster level...

Also, giving Fighters, etc. a 'Caster Level' bonus strikes me as bizarre...if I take three levels in fighter, and then a level in wizard, I can suddenly cast spells like a 2nd level wizard? Weird...but I guess no more bizarre than BAB....just assume that SOME magical training goes into every class, just like SOME smacking-things-on-the-head trianing goes with ever class.

The vancian vs. spontaneous thing isn't as much a problem as it is the lots of versatility vs. a little versatility. There should be some way to limit the spells known and accessable for a Sorcerer and Bard...maybe something like they gain "+x spells" at various levels might work, whereas Wizards are only limited in what they have access to, and Clerics are limited only by what their god allows. If a sorcerer could re-choose their spells every day, a big portion of the Sorcerer's harship (lack of versatility) is pretty much lost.

Similarly, I guess that could solve the spell lists problem. Instead of basically having unlimited spells, certain classes would get "+x spells" as a class ability, chosen from a specific list. Wizards would have the ability to add any spells from their list as they got 'em. Clerics would have a similar ability. Sorcs and Bards would be limited to this number of spells only -- they couldn't learn new ones through research, and they couldn't change their current ones.

I kinda like it...consider it "yoinked" for now.

Oh, and as for the Wiz9+Clr1=Clr10 thing, I'd say that could be handled in the same way a list is...A Wiz 9 would be able to access all his Wizard spell list, a Clr 1, only his first-level cleric spell list. The list grows with the character, so that a Clr 10 gains the ability to access 5th-level cleric spells to add to his list, but a Clr 1 only gets 1st level cleric spells to add to his list.

 

[Michael Tree]

Are you saying that a Wiz1/Cler1 would be caster level 2 and be able to casta number of spells per day equal to a "standard 2nd level spellcaster" (probably something close to the wizard). He could then pick any combination of cleric spells and known wizard spells but the total number of spells would be the same as a normal wiz2?

So if I am a wiz 9 and I gain a level and I take a level of cleric, does that mean I can suddenly cast 5th level cleric spells?

How would you do high ability bonus spells?

1) Yes, basically.

2) No, that would clearly be unbalanced. Figuring out how to work with the different spell lists is one problem that I havn't found an adequate solution for. Some have suggested that multiclassed spellcasters only gain knowledge of the spells from each of their class levels, so a Wizard 3 / Cleric 7 would have the spells/day of an 10th level wizard, but would only know 2nd level Wizard spells and 4th level Cleric spells. I don't find this solution very satisfactory, since it doesn't solve the "non-stacking" problem.

You could use the above, but say that the character has full access to the spells that appear on both classes' lists, so the above character would get access to 5th level spells that appear on both cleric and wizard spell lists, but only 2nd level spells that are unique to wizards, and 4th level spells that are unique to cleric.

We could even go to the extreme of getting rid of the idea of individualized spell lists, breaking down all the spells into different categories of spells, somewhat like the 2e priest spheres. That way the categories that both casters had would stack, but the rest wouldn't stack.

3) Ummm... that's another area I havn't figured out yet. I suppose a multiclassed character would take the highest of the spellcasting attributes he has classes for, or perhaps use the attribute of the first spellcasting class he took levels in.

 

[Michael Tree]

Kamikaze, it would indeed require an overhaul of the classes. It's a pretty big change, and would need a lot of playtesting to get right.

The paladin problem wouldn't be a problem though: Only start giving Paladins "Spells/Day" bonuses at 4th level, then every other level afterward.

The caster level progression is only weird if you think of it as magical training. It makes more sence if you think of it as innate power, which even non-spellcasting classes develop in the same way that all classes develop stronger Wills and battlefield toughness (hit points), regardless of whether they train in them.

A 0-level character who gains a level of wizard is very different from, say, a 5th level fighter who gains a level of wizard. They have the same amount of magical training and knowledge (represented by spells/day and spells known), but the fighter has lived through a lot more, including surviving against magical beings, and has a lot more innate life-force than the beginning character.

The vancian vs. spontaneous thing isn't as much a problem as it is the lots of versatility vs. a little versatility.

Indeed, and that's a tricky problem to solve. I'm curious how Arcana Unearthed will balance all their different classes, since they all have more flexibility.

If AU's spellcasting system is used, Sorcerers could be re-balanced by giving them the same spells/day as a wizard (rather than the larger number of spells/day that they currently have), combined with Charisma as their casting attribute, and some class abilities that fit the flavor of "innate power" instead of the Wizard's bonus feats. I've heard that the AU GM screen will have conversions of the PH classes to the AU system, which could be very useful insight here.

I originally wrote this system suggestion for Arcana Unearthed, with which it doesn't have the same problems as D&D, since all classes in AU use the same basic spell list, and cast spells in the same way. The unique spells of each class, such as the Magister's complex spells, and the greenbond's plant spells, would be handled with class abilities, similarly to Clerical domains above.

 

[BryonD]

That's cool.

I've been toying with similar varients a little recently. As you said, I'd imagine quite a few people are with the advent of the MT.
And the BAB model seems an obvious approach.

Anyway, not suprisingly, I ran into the same type problems.

A spin I was trying was giving each class a secondary spellcasting advancement for exisiting classes. For example, wizard would have a +3/4 secondary spellcasting advancement. So If you gain a level of wizard you may also gain +3/4 levels of spellcasting in another existing class. So a cleric 4 gains a level of wizard and would be a Cleric 4 3/4 Wiz 1 == C4/W1. Gaining another level of wizard goes to C5/W2. Etc.

Other classes would give lesser secondary advancements

This still has problems. Still getting to powerful is one. Pain in the neck paperwork keeping up with it is another.

So I don't think it is a very good system. But maybe someone else can build on it.

 

[Hob Marshmallowfoot]

THhs may sound like a whacky idea, but what about the old spell point thing?

Ex: 1st level spell costs 1 spell point to prepair... so a first level character gets 1 spell point... and another 1 at second.

A second level spell costs 3 spell points to prepair, so a 3rd level character gets 3 more spell points

If you are a 1 wiz/ 2 clr (or 2wiz/1clr) you would have say 3 spell points, enough for three 1st level spells or one 2nd level spell.

If you are 3wiz or 3clr you have 5 spell points, enough for two 1st and one 2nd.

You can call them slots if you want, and caster level goes up as long as you take a level in a casting class.

 

[Gez]

Sadly, it was unstickied before Monte came back...

Originally posted there :
A little question, born from this excerpt of the chat:

thatdarncat> Dr. Strangemonkey> There has been a lot of talk lately about multi-classing with spellcasters would you care to elaborate on Arcana Unearthed's response to this issue? Particularly on AU's take on minor spell casting classes versus the ranger and paladin of DnD?

Monte > Well, very briefly, spells in AU have a single list, rather than multiple ones. Different casters have different access to the list, but it's still one list. That means that spellcasting levels can stack in ways that they can't in D&D. If you are a spellcaster with spell slots of 4/2 and you take on a new class that gives you new slots of 3/1, you simply have 7/3 slots.


I'm a bit disappointed there. I kinda hoped something more universal, like BAB. If I may illustrate an example of what I had in mind, one (1) table of spells readied and spell per day according to caster level, and then each spellcasting class with a caster level that increase more or less slowly.

Applied to D&D class, that could looks like that:

One universal table:

CL  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9
 1  3  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
 2  4  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
 3  4  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
 4  4  3  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
 5  4  3  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -
 6  4  4  3  2  -  -  -  -  -  -
 7  4  4  3  2  1  -  -  -  -  -
 8  4  4  3  3  2  -  -  -  -  -
 9  4  4  4  3  2  1  -  -  -  -
10  4  4  4  3  3  2  -  -  -  -
11  4  4  4  4  3  2  1  -  -  -
12  4  4  4  4  3  3  2  -  -  -
13  4  4  4  4  4  3  2  1  -  -
14  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  2  -  -
15  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  2  1  -
16  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  2  -
17  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  2  1
18  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  2
19  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  3
20  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4

Then:
Bards: CL +1 at level 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, etc. Roughy +2/3 per level. End up with CL 13 (spells of up to level 7).
Clerics: CL +1 at each level, get one bonus spell from domain for each spell level they may cast.
Druids: CL +1 at each level.
Paladin & Ranger: CL +1 at level 1 and every three levels thereafter (4, 7, 10, etc.). End up CL 7 (spells of up to level 4).
Wizards: CL +1 at each level.
Sorcerers: CL +1 at each level save the second, get two bonus spellcasting at each spell level they may cast.

That way, multiclassing spellcasters is just like multiclassing fighters. You add numbers together, and that number determine your number of spell per day, or your number of attacks in a full attack.

It would be hard to put in D&D given the important differences in spelllists, but I think it would be doable for UA. That solution also solve some balance problems with continuing PrCs (+1 caster level don't give the same benefits to a ranger than to a clerics, and may make some PrCs unbalanced for the stronger spellcasting classes, but by giving CL that behaves like BAB, balance issues are simplified).

 

[Michael Tree]

I'm a bit disappointed there. I kinda hoped something more universal, like BAB. If I may illustrate an example of what I had in mind, one (1) table of spells readied and spell per day according to caster level, and then each spellcasting class with a caster level that increase more or less slowly.

I was disappointed too. It would have been so easy to go all the way in AU and make spellcasting completely stackable.

I am heartened that several people have independently come up with very similar fixes, though. It's a good sign that the system is straightforward and at least somewhat self-evident.

It would work almost seamlessly in AU, but I'd like to find an elegant way of making it work with D&D too.