D&D 3E/3.5 Multiclassing in D&D 3rd Edition

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

My best friend Rob Heinsoo was the lead designer on 4th Ed, and one of his jobs was to fix things that 3rd Ed hadn’t fixed. Multiclassing was on that list of systems that needed work. At one point when playing 3rd Ed, Rob was running a 3rd level barbarian-fighter-ranger. Given the way multiclassing worked, why not?

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Meanwhile, the barbarian-cleric I ran in the RPGA never gained a 2nd level in barbarian. Giving up cleric spells would have been too high a price to pay, and in fact the one level of barbarian that I had given this character was a nod to style and a tactical mistake. (Arguably playing anything other than a full-on cleric in 3rd Ed RPGA games was a mistake.) The Third Ed version of multiclassing “worked” in that you could mix and match as you pleased, but it didn’t really work in that most combinations were a mess. Multiclassing rules are a bitch.

When we started design on 3rd Ed, we knew that multiclassing would be an issue. The earliest takes were basically classes that combined the traits of two base classes, with a slightly steeper XP curve for leveling up. Theoretically, this system is like the Elf class in Red Box. The approach was solid in that it would have let us balance each “multiclasses” like we balanced the base classes. But this system seemed too limited for our purposes. Third Ed was about busting open limits, and combo class system seemed to make multiclassing more restricted than before. Today, after seeing the “mix-and-match” system in play for 20 years, I wonder whether we might have done better by developing that original system.

As it is, we got pretty far in the design process without solving the multiclass problem. In the end, I proposed more or less the current system, with levels from different classes stacking benefits on top of each other. The best thing about the system, I figure, was the concept of prestige classes. They were basically “multiclass only” classes. The prestige class concept was pretty exciting and made all sorts of interesting designs possible. And the beauty of the “libertarian” approach is that it required almost no work to balance. It wasn’t balanced.

One of the guiding tenets of the 3rd Ed design was “consequence, not restrictions.” It meant that we wouldn’t tell you that you can’t play a halforc paladin. Now halforcs have a Charisma penalty, so there will be consequences, but you can do what you want. This approach can be something of a disaster when it comes to making permanent choices about your character. And with the “anything goes” rules for multiclassing, there were more ways to build a weak character than to build a strong one.

On some level, balanced, anything-goes multiclassing rules are systemically impossible, and here’s a thought experiment to help you see what I mean. Suppose that the game designers hand-balance the base classes so that they play well next to each other. These base classes have the right power level and that right number of options: not too many or too few. That’s where you want the classes to be. Now imagine that you add on an algorithmic system for taking any two of those classes and combining them in any combination of levels. Maybe throw in a couple extra classes, up to as many classes as you have levels. What sort of “class” are you going to end up with when you combine different classes into one? The ideal result is that the character has more options balanced against less overall power. In addition, the increase in the number of options has to be modest enough that the player doesn’t get burdened by having too many. If you hit that ideal sweet spot that balances power with options, you’re lucky. Most combinations, especially with spellcasters, come with too harsh a penalty for the benefit. For others, like the fighter-ranger-barbarians, there was an increase not only versatility but also in effectiveness.

The multiclass rules are a dramatic example of how treating things the same is a mistake if those things are different. The rules allow players to mix and match classes in virtually any combination, as if the Nth level of any class is the equivalent of the 1st level (or Nth level) of any other class, even when combined. With this “wild west” or “libertarian” approach to multiclassing, combinations are bound to vary from weaker to stronger depending on how well the classes line up. Two classes that rely on Strength and Dexterity, like fighter and ranger combo up pretty well. But what about a Strength-based, heavily armored class with an Intelligence-based class with spellcaster that’s penalized for wearing armor? Any system that makes the fighter-ranger OK is going to be hard going for the fighter-wizard. If the game designers balance the system to makes the fighter-wizard OK, then the fighter-ranger is too strong. Those two combinations are quite different, so using the same rules for both of them leads to imbalance somewhere in the system.

To complicate things further, there were countless ways to combine two classes. If the fighter-1/wizard-9 is balanced, can the fighter-5/wizard-5 be balanced, and the fighter-9/wizard-1? Not really. There are so many multiclass options that inevitably most of them are going to be too strong or, more likely, too weak.

One problem with multiclassing is that classes came front-loaded with lots of great stuff at 1st level. If you’re a barbarian, the reasoning went, you want to be able to rage at 1st level. We toyed with the idea of giving each class a special feature that only single-class characters would get, but it was a new idea and it would have taken lots of work to get right, and we passed.

For 4th Edition, an overarching goal was to prevent players from making choices that led to them being disappointed. They headed off the problem of multiclass characters by not allowing regular multiclassing. A fighter could pick up some bits from the wizard class, and you could play a class built from scratch to be an arcane spellcasting warrior, but you couldn’t give yourself a bad experience by building a fighter-5/wizard-5.

For 13th Age, Rob and I forced a solution. For one thing, the rules support only an even split between two classes, reducing the complexity by at least two-thirds. The rules ended up somewhat resembling the AD&D multiclass rules, combining reduced-power versions of two classes. We also force every class/class combination to care equally about two different abilities. That way there’s no natural advantage for a combination of two classes with the same main ability, such as the bard-sorcerer, who needs Dex as much as Cha. Each class-class combination also got hand-balanced with power possibly adjusted up or down and special rules provided when necessary.

Fifth edition gets a lot of things right. It has some forms of “multiclassing” built into the classes, such as the fighter’s eldritch knight option, which is a nice touch and easy to balance. Fifth Ed also returns to the mix-and-match system, but they plug a lot of holes when they do. Many rules contribute to a smoother multiclassing system: ability minimums, limited proficiencies, more generous spellcasting, classes getting cool stuff at 2nd level, and the universal proficiency bonus. These concise, useful rules obviously come from people who played the hell out of 3rd Ed and knew exactly what was wrong with multiclassing. Even so, the various combinations all are going to work more or less well, and only some of those combinations can be balanced right. Spellcasters still lose out on their most powerful spellcasting levels, making it painful to multiclass with a non-casting class. Multiclass rules are a pain to design.
 

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Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish
I hope this isn't veering off-topic -- yet it's related to the general theme of the entire series of J. Tweet articles here at EN World. Namely, beyond recounting the innovations which came through 3E and 13th Age (and how they compare with 4E and 5E) -- the question arises: in Tweet's mind's eye, what would be the next innovation beyond those?

I'd love to see an article by Johnathan which spells out what he'd like to see for a "6th Edition", or, more specifically, for a 13th Age Second Edition. (14th Age? 20th Age? 6th Age? 6th Era? 6th Epoch?)

And I have one suggestion for Pelgrane Press in that regard. It's not a rules suggestion, but a business suggestion. Something which no one has ever done, or even tried before. Not Paizo, not WotC, not anyone.

Namely this:

Be the first iteration of D&D to covert the entire contents of the 3E SRD, 5E SRD, PF1 SRD (including the massive amount of 3PP PF1 material on the PFRD), and PF2 SRD, into your new game system, on the release date, so that even a long-standing game group with tons of homebrew, supplemental, and 3PP content, could literally switch their entire game library and world and characters over to your system, in one fell swoop.

This would of course require an exceptionally huge design effort before the game is even released. But if you Kickstartered that with the design goal advertised ahead of time, it would make waves. Through this approach, I think Pelgrane could become the next Paizo. Picture this Kickstarter announcement:

"Pelgrane Press' 20th Era (20E) is pre-converting literally every 13th Age book to the new 20E system, along with the entire contents of the 3.5 SRD, d20 Modern SRD, d20 Anime SRD, PFRD, PFSRD 3PP, Starfinder SRD, Dungeon World SRD, 5E SRD, Mutants & Masterminds SRD, The Black Hack SRD, and PF2 SRD. 20th Era offers a complete evolution of the entire body of Open Game material...all in one go!"

Could also look into extracting the Open Game Content from DCC, C&C, WOIN, and various OGL/OSR systems which do or don't have SRDs. And include all genres from the start: fantasy, sci-fi, supers, modern, anime, etc.

Also, proactively seek out existing fantasy and sci-fi IPs for conversion, so as to increase the player network from the start. Solicit essentially every RPG publisher (large, medium, small, and one-person affairs), offering early-bird collaboration and conversion, for some or all of their settings.
***
So those are the business approaches I'd love to see. Never been done before.

The only rules suggestion I have is to really consider making the game to be hardly more complex than The Black Hack, Knave, and/or Maze Rats; but at the same time, takes into account the leading edge of uber-complex PF2. You've already got a great combo of simplicity+complexity there in 13th Age. I wonder though, if in some regards, 13A2 could be taken even further in a simplistic direction. As long as all the character options (classes, races, feats, spells, magic items) and monsters from all the Open SRDs are pre-converted to the system, then the system itself can be satisfyingly simple.

-Travis
 
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DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
Be the first iteration of D&D to covert the entire contents of the 3E SRD, 5E SRD, PF1 SRD (including the massive amount of 3PP PF1 material on the PFRD), and PF2 SRD, into your new game system, on the release date, so that even a long-standing game group with tons of homebrew, supplemental, and 3PP content, could literally switch their entire game library and world and characters over to your system, in one fell sweep.

If Pelgrane Press somehow recruited Paizo and WotC for this project and their entire combined staff worked on it full-time and nonstop, they could not complete what you are suggesting within the time it would take them to design a whole new system from scratch, publish it with support materials, and then retire it.
 

It isn't hard to balance level N of class A with level 1 of class B. You just need a linear power curve. The underlying problem is that going from level (N-1) to level N (where N > 2) gives a bigger boost than going from level 1 to level 2, but there's no reason why it needs to be that way.

Once you solve that, there are only a few contradictions to resolve (like rage/spellcasting, and arcane/armor). And honestly, if the underlying math is balanced around the assumption that you gain the full benefits of each level, you could just outright remove those restrictions.
 

If Pelgrane Press somehow recruited Paizo and WotC for this project and their entire combined staff worked on it full-time and nonstop, they could not complete what you are suggesting within the time it would take them to design a whole new system from scratch, publish it with support materials, and then retire it.

Haha - you may be right. But sometimes ya gotta think big. A 5-million dollar Kickstarter would go a long way toward that, enabling the tapping of a huge network of capable freelancers.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The multiclass rules are a dramatic example of how treating things the same is a mistake if those things are different. The rules allow players to mix and match classes in virtually any combination, as if the Nth level of any class is the equivalent of the 1st level (or Nth level) of any other class, even when combined.
I think I would quibble with this a little bit. There's nothing about D&D class design that requires that ascending levels within a class be asymmetric. You could certainly have design where taking a level in a class gives increased access to a particular menu of abilities, but more potent powers are gated by overall character level, not class level.
 

DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
You could certainly have design where taking a level in a class gives increased access to a particular menu of abilities, but more potent powers are gated by overall character level, not class level.

Yes, this. Or even both, if you a given ability requires a given class investment in addition to minimum character level. Simply separating the two opens the designers' options up considerably.
 

Worrgrendel

Explorer
I'm sorry that I managed to overlook your extremely specific counter-example. I probably should also include the Coffeelock as proof that 5e's multiclassing rules work exactly as intended.

You are the one who stated "There is no combination of classes in which a 6/4 is capable of pulling their own weight in a party of 10th level characters." (emphasis mine). To accurately answer your statement I only needed 1 "extremely specific counter-example" to disprove your overgeneralized argument with no evidence to support it. I will also point out that I stated we had one other multiclass character at the table (albeit not a 6/4) and Zardnaar pointed out several other completely viable 6/4 multiclassing combinations that work as well.

If you want to throw out false, inaccurate statements with no evidence to support them, that have holes large enough to drive an aircraft carrier through them and then get upset when someone actually drives an aircraft carrier through them, I suggest you revisit commenting on the internet.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
The responses to this article serve to illustrate how, while there might be some agreement that 3E multiclassing was less than perfect (to put it mildly), there's no particular agreement on why that was or how to fix it. I see that as a function of the different ideas that people have regarding how the game is supposed to work, both at the mechanical level and in actual play.

For my part, I'm of the opinion that 1) options and balance are opposed to each other in what they're trying to accomplish, and 2) there's no practical definition of what "balance" means.

To elucidate those a little more, if we presume that "balance" is supposed to include some idea of option parity, then options - which include all feats, spells, each level of each class, etc. - will all need to be restrained in what they offer. That means a lot of them will need to be curtailed, and others will need to be disallowed (or rather, never written/published in the first place) altogether. What you can do is restricted in the name of balance. Of course, that's hard to do for any system that relies on successive option-filled supplements being published. After all, "meaningful" differences tend to be seen as "being able to do something new." It's why most people quickly grew bored of +2/+2 skill-booster feats.

More notable is the question of what exactly constitutes "balance" in practical terms. That last party is key: most people just say something along the lines of "every option should be as good as every other option" without getting into how that would work. There's also the question of what snapshot of the game is being examined: are you looking at the breadth of an entire campaign, or at one round's worth of actions.

To tie this back to multiclassing, 3E tried to make things more balanced by having everyone use a unified XP table, where you could gain 20 levels (at least before the Epic Level Handbook) and mix and match what class you advanced in at each level. (To be fair, it introduced XP penalties for uneven progression, waiving that with "favored classes" for various races.) This actually made things less "balanced" as people found most of the multiclassing options served to undercut the power-growth of taking successive levels in the same class (especially for spellcasters). It was the same reason that ECL/level adjustments for powerful monster PCs didn't work very well.

Maybe it's because communication wasn't as good back then, but I don't recall hearing this be nearly such a huge complaint with AD&D multiclassing (for demihumans) and dual-classing (for humans).
 


DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
You are the one who stated ...

I am perfectly aware of what I said. I was sitting right here when I said it.

If you think that your ability to find a counter-example to an (admittedly) overly absolute statement means that the statement is not generally still true in the vast majority of cases, then you're either nowhere as adept at logical reasoning as you'd have us believe, or you're only interested in making yourself look smarter at others' expense rather than contributing meaningfully to the conversation.

Either way, don't bother replying.
 

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