Multiclassing saves

[Anubus]

I'm wondering if anyone else has a problem with these, as I've never seen it mentioned as being broken, and it's not a 3.5 change i'm aware of. The thing is I have a problem with the saving bonuses for the first level of both core classes and prestige classes being +2/+0/+0. The +2 is too good, its fine for a first level character, but they should only be +1 at first level for multiclass characters, otherwise a 10th level character could have a +20 save, not including stats or magic. This seems rediculous to me. Now it's stupid to think that someone would actually take 10 different classes just to get this, but some of my players have taken 2 or 3 core classes and 1 or 2 prestige classes, or some combination there of, not to get the saves but for other abilities that they wanted for their character. I'm fine with this, the more variety the better, but as a consequence some of their saves are getting crazy/ practically immune to poison, and their only level 13. I'm not one to limit what my players can and cannot play, and I shouldn't have too, at least not for this reason. This just seems broken to me, even if multiclassing does generally weaken the character overall, this trade is too good. Oh and by weaken I mean when compared against a single class character in terms of that classes focus, ie combat, spells, whatever, so don't start talking about that. I'm looking for other peoples opinions about this, and maybe some rationale behind the +2 for first level prestige classes.

 

[DanMcS]

Just have them keep track of how many of their levels are in a class with good progression for the save, and sum it that way. So a fighter 2/barbarian 2, they'd have a +4 for their fort save, not a +6, and a +1 for reflex and will, not +0.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

DanMcS has a way of dealing with this.

But, IMO, you don't need that. Maybe their Fort save is insanely high, but what about their will save? It usually balances out, and while they could chug down a tankard of Cobra Spit, the lowliest mage could make them their best friend without trying too hard...

Maitre D

 

[Anubus]

Yeah thats a good idea DanMcS. I think it would be better if all classes where just fort/reflex/will: good/bad/bad or something like that. At first level good saves are +2, and every level after that good means a +1, that makes more sense to me. It's just hard to accept a 13th level PC with a better fort save that a balor or something.

Maitre Du Donjon, yeah it's true that their "weak" saves are crap, but if they were just a straight fighter, their will save would still be crap, and the good save would be higher for the multiclassed character. So it doesn't really balance in my opinion.

 

[dagger]

It usually ballances out, we have been playing 3e for almost 3 years (next month!), but this has never been a problem. There is a LOT of multi classing and prestige classing going on as well. One of our regulard DMs does not even care how many classes you even take.

And even if a pc takes levels of a class that gives him good saves in relation to his other classes its no big deal. Some characters have better saves than others, so what.

Its very hard to get a +20 save at 10th level though.....VERY hard.

 

[Hardhead]

There is a character in my campaign, that thanks to multiclasing and a Cloak of Resistance +5 (he's a wizard, and he made it himself- I dind't give it out!), has all three saves at +16 or higher. He's 13th level.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I'm definitly a proponent of the "5 levels of good will save, one of bad" strategy rather than "Plus 3 for wizard, +3 for monk, +2 for druid and +0 for rogue". While its fine for some characters to be better at some saves it can be silly after a while. I also Apply the rule to BAB - add up the total fractional BABs round down. So the above character would have 2x0.5 + 4x0.75 = BAB of 4, not 2.

This is a very common house rule, and could practically be reffered to as an "alternate rule" by now, considering how many high end designers have recommended it as a fix for DMs bothered by the high save/low BAB multiclass issue...

Kahuna burger

 

[Angcuru]

I just go with Save Progression by chart, not by class. A 5th lvl fighter/Ranger/Barb/Paladin would have a base saves of +5/+2/+2, not +10/+0/+0. But if he was a lvl 3 Fighter/Cleric/Wizard, that would pose a problem, since they have totally different progressions. this combo would have+2/+2/+2.

 

[dagger]

Well none I have every met.

It has been no problems in our games, even at high levels, characters are slagged just as easy as the poor single class fighter with an 8 wiz.

DMs bothered by the high save/low BAB multiclass issue...

Kahuna burger

 

[I'm A Banana]

Bah, there's no problem with it, because the 'bad' saves at that level give +0, which offsets any progression in the bad saves by one level.

Basically, his Will save is even crappier than a normal fighters', at the expense of an obscenely high Fort. You're the DM, toss a few fey at the man and see him love it.