Multige classes and Gestalt levels

[Cheiromancer]

[edit] The thread has changed to a discussion of using gestalt levels to replace classes like Mystic Theurge. The latest version is gestalt-5, in post 17. [/edit]

Generic Prestige Classes

I know, it sounds like a contradiction in terms, but one function of prestige classes is not to represent membership in a prestigious group but, more mundanely, to serve as a way of effectively multiclassing. Eldritch Knight for the fighter/wizard (or “gish”), Mystic Theurge for the cleric/wizard, etc.. I have been thinking about this function for some time, and I think I have a way of approximating these classes through what I call “Master classes”- a kind of generic prestige class.

The idea is this: each base class has an associated master class that counts double as far as spellcasting and special abilties go. Special abilities are things like sneak attack for rogues, bonus feats for fighters, and so on. After starting with a certain number of ordinary levels, characters take master levels to represent advanced training in a different field.

Clearly, there need to be restrictions on how many master levels can be taken. Otherwise you could have a rogue 5/ master wizard 5 who would have the spellcasting abilities (and bonus feats) of a 10th level wizard and a 5th level rogue. What would be the point of being a straight 10th level wizard? Even worse is the possibility of being a wizard 5/ master wizard 5. A 10th level character with 8th level spells is clearly over the top.

The following rules allow classes like the Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge to be (roughly) duplicated.

1. A character must have 5 or more ordinary levels before he can take a master level.

2. The number of master levels is limited to 2 less than the number of “outside” class levels. A rogue 5/wizard 1 would be limited to 3 master wizard levels. 5-2=3.

3. The total number of master levels cannot exceed the number of ordinary levels. However a character can sacrifice a bonus feat (such as one gained by level advancement or class levels) to allow a master level count as an ordinary level for this purpose.

4. Spellcasting and special abilities granted by master levels do not stack with abilities granted by prestige classes.

The following rules help make BAB turn out nicely:

5. BAB is calculated using the fractional BAB rules. A rogue 1/ wizard 1 has a BAB of 0.75 + 0.5 = 1.25 which is treated as +1.

6. BAB cannot be higher than the character’s hit dice.

7. The Warrior class is house-ruled to be exactly like the fighter, except without bonus feats. Instead the warrior class has a special ability which grants it +0.25 BAB every level (or +1 BAB every four levels). The Master Warrior thus grants an extra +0.5 BAB every level.


I'll post examples soon.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Example 1:

To make an effective wizard/fighter, a character could take the following levels:

First, a 5 level “prefix.” Fighter 1/Wizard 4 would work nicely.

Then two levels of Master Warrior (MWa), to catch up on BAB. Then alternate Master Wizard (Mwiz) with levels of Ftr, Mftr and Mwa as desired. The bonus feats for wizard level 5, 10 and 15 can be sacrificed to satisfy rule 3. If the character does not want to sacrifice bonus feats he will have to take additional ordinary levels of fighter, warrior or wizard.

A final mix of Ftr2/Wiz4/Mftr1/MWa6/Mwiz7 gives a BAB of +17 and a caster level (CL) of 18. Since there are 14 master levels and only 6 ordinary levels in this build, 4 feats must be sacrificed to allow 4 master levels to count as ordinary levels, satisfying rule 3. The bonus feat from Mftr 1 and three wizard bonus feats would do nicely.

This character has 4 attacks (+17/+12/+7/+2) and can cast 9th level spells. Hit dice are 9d10 + 11d4 = 3.85 hp per level (plus con bonus, plus max hp at first level, etc.) which is a little better than the 1d6 of the eldritch knight. He is eligible to select weapon specialization since the Mftr level counts double, and so he is treated as having 4 fighter levels.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Example 2:

This is to make a wizard/cleric

First, take a 5 level prefix of Clr4/Wiz1, followed by two levels of Mwiz, the maximum allowed by rule 2. At this point the character will be an 7th level character with the abilties of a 4th level cleric and a 5th level wizard. A Mystic Theurge with Clr3/Wiz3/MT 1 would have 4th level casting ability in both classes, and would also have slightly fewer hitpoints and undead turning ability.

Now alternate Mclr and Mwiz. As per rule 3 you would sacrifice the wizard bonus feats for levels 5, 10 and 15. Two feats (gained by level advancement, say at levels 15 and 18) would also be sacrificed.

One possible final build, then, is Clr4/Wiz1/Mclr7/Mwiz8 which has a CL of Wiz 17 and Clr 18.

If the character wants more feats, another build is Clr9/Wiz1/Mclr2/Mwiz8, which doesn’t sacrifice any feats and has a CL of Wiz 17 and Clr 13. Clr9/Wiz1/Mclr4/Mwiz6 gives a CL of Wiz 13 and Clr 17. The cleric levels give good hit points and fair undead turning ability.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Example 3. A rogue/wizard. Use the same progression as example 2, but substitute (master) rogue levels for (master) cleric levels. Similar progressions will work for rogue/clerics, rogue/sorcerers, etc..

Example 4. A "warrior cleric"- I don't have a particular published prestige class that I am trying to approximate.

Prefix is Clr3/Wa2. Then alternate Mftr/Mclr twice. Keep the three fighter bonus feats; the last one can be used to get weapon specialization. Add a level of clr. This 10th level character, Clr4/Wa2/Mclr2/Mftr2 has a BAB of +9, a CL of clr 8 and 3 fighter bonus feats.

Now alternate Wa with MClr for a final build of Clr4/Wa7/Mclr7/Mftr2, a 20th level character with a BAB of +19 and a CL of clr 18.

For a more primitive feel, replace the fighter levels with barbarian levels, and/or the cleric levels with druid levels.

Example 5. A "skilled fighter" - again, I don't have a particular published prestige class in mind.

Use the build from example 4, but replace (master) cleric levels with (master) rogue levels.

To add a woodsy feel (and more skill points) you can also replace the fighter levels with ranger levels.

 

[Cheiromancer]

This method gives multiclass builds a bit stronger than the core rules allow. The fighter/wizard build is, I believe, stronger than an Eldritch Knight, and the cleric/wizard build is better than a Mystic Theurge.

However, these builds are weaker than what the folks in the optimization forum (on the WotC boards) routinely come up with using carefully selected mixes of prestige classes from all WotC books.

I think, therefore, that this method is just about right.


A note about "sacrificing" feats to incorporate more master levels into a build: This mechanic is an abstraction of the idea that characters typically have to "waste" one or more feats in order to qualify for a prestige class. Since prestige classes also typically have ranks in one or more skills as a pre-requisite, there should be an equivalent way of sacrificing skill points. I would suggest that 6 skill points be treated as equivalent to 1 feat for the purpose of rule 3.

Comments?

 

[Gez]

Ah, the problem of what I dubbed "multige class", short for multiclass prestige class.

IMC, I've solved part of that problem with power levels. Each class (and creature type) gets a new associated variable, like BAB or saves, called Caster Level or CL for short.

Psion, warmage, wizard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, etc. get a full CL progression.
Bard, psychic warrior, adept, etc. get a 2/3 CL progression.
Paladin, ranger, and non-spellcasters get a 1/2 CL progression.

CL is directly tied to spellslots. There's a unique spell slots table for everyone.

Spell access, though, is still a class feature. A wizard 5 gets access to wizard spells of level 3. If he's also a cleric 5, he has spell slots for the 5th level (with an CL of 10), but he only has access to wizard and cleric spells of level 0 to 3.

Though you can spend a feat to gain access to the new level of spells in a class where you already have access to some spells.

So, if you take a mystic theurge with that system: wizard 11/cleric 9, spell access to wizard spells level 0-6 and cleric spells level 0-5. For the cost of 3 feats, he get access to wizard spells level 7-9 in addition. With four more feats, he also get access to the full cleric spell list. 7 feats is the minimum everybody get during a 20-level progression.

As a result, this gives far less spell slots for multiclassed spellcasters... But greater metamagic opportunities -- if you have spell slots of level 7 but you only know spells up to level 3, you'll have less qualms about preparing them as quickened.

 

[Gez]

Now that I think of it, here's a simple variant of your master class system: Gestalt.

One can gain gestalt levels in a class he has already at least five regular levels. (So a rogue 1/wizard 5 could gain a gestalt wizard/something else level, like wizard/rogue.)

Only odd levels can be gestalted. (7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19.) Of course, they can be regular as well.

One cannot have more gestalt levels than half his regular levels.

So a wizard 5/rogue 1 has 6 regular levels, he can gain three gestalt wizard levels. His seventh level is a gestalt rogue/wizard. The 8th, another wizard one. The ninth, gestalt again. Tenth, wizard, and he is has the class features of a wizard 9 and a rogue 3, for 7d4+3d6 hp. 8 regular levels, so at level 11, he can take his third gestalt level. Level 12 is his 9th regular, so he has his fourth gestalt at level 13, his tenth regular at level 14, his fifth gestalt at level 15, and his level 16 is his 11th regular level. So he can't take a sixth gestalt level at level 17 and must wait level 19.

He ends up as having 13 wizard levels, 1 rogue level, 6 rogue/wizard levels. CL 19, 4d6 sneak attack.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Your example character, the wizard 19-rogue 7... the wizard level is a bit too high, I think. It is quite a bit better than a wizard 20. And the total level is a bit low: the levels sum only to 26, while most eldritch knight or mystic theurge builds are 30 or higher.

How about this:

You need at least five levels, and the first gestalt level must be of classes that are within 1 of each other (this is to prevent 4/1 splits). Subsequent gestalts may be of any kind, as long as you have at least 1 level of each class in the gestalt. Gestalt levels cannot be awarded at levels divisible by 4 (i.e. 8, 12, 16 and 20). If characters forego the ability score boost at a level divisible by 4, they can instead choose to take a gestalt level. Thus if a character wishes to give up a +4 to an ability score, that character could be a rogue 2/wizard 3/rogue-wizard 15.

So a rogue 2/wizard 3 can add 11 gestalt rogue-wizard levels and 4 wizard levels, and end up with the abilities of a rogue 13 and a wizard 18. By giving up 4 points of natural ability score increase, the character could be a rogue 17-wizard 18.

For a tougher variant, try this:

You need at least five levels, and the first gestalt level must be of classes that are within 1 of each other. Subsequent gestalts may be of any kind, as long as you have at least 1 level of each class in the gestalt. Gestalt levels can be awarded only at even levels (6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20, for 8 total). A general feat can be spent which allows a gestalt level to be taken at a specified odd level. If a gestalt level is not taken at that level, the feat is wasted. Since every character has at least 7 general feats available, this allows all 15 levels after level 5 to be gestalt levels.

 

[Cheiromancer]

The first variant (Gestalt-4, since the gestalt levels skip every 4th level) is a strong variant. The 11 gestalt levels are better than the 10 levels of mystic theurge since they have better hit dice and BAB. And there are 11 of them, rather than 10, which is an improvement. However they are spread out, so they don't peak at level 16 the way the MT does. And for a MT it is more important to have extra caster levels than it is to have a few more hit points or a point or two extra BAB. I would estimate that it is strong, but not broken. MT is not overpowered when it applies just to cleric/wizard multiclassing, and neither is this.

One problem that MT has is that it is dependent on two ability scores instead of just one. This is cruelly exploited by the Gestalt-4 variant since the way you gain more gestalt levels is by foregoing the ability score increases every four levels. Ability boosts are scarce enough as it is, so the trade-off should be very painful.

The second variant (Gestalt-2, since gestalt levels are even levels) is very close in power to the master class scheme I opened the thread with. One pays for the increased hp and BAB by either having lower caster levels or by burning a few more feats. Still, my number crunching shows that the two are very close.

With regard to the CL progression variant that was posted just before the gestalt variants: When you talk about buying access to a spell level with a feat, you mean general feats, right? I presume that a wizard's or fighter's bonus feats could not be used to buy access to a spell level, since spell access doesn't strike me as being either martial, metamagical or related to item creation.

If this is correct then only 6 feats could be spent to gain spell level access. The 1st level feat can't be spent, since the character already has access to spells in his only class.

Of course, you could do what I did, and have a feat wait around for it to take effect. It could activate a spell slot so that when your caster level was sufficient it could be accessed. Another possibility would be to have some kind of drawback that you could buy a spell level access feat with.

According to Practiced Spell-caster, +1 caster level is worth 0.25 feats. If you could take 2 levels off of each of your caster levels (18/18 instead of 20/20), that would allow you to access 9th level spells on both spell lists.

Incidentally, your build (Wizard 11/ Cleric 9) might work better if it was Cleric 15/Wizard 5 or even Cleric 17/Wizard 3. I think Cleric levels are generally better than wizard levels (turn undead, saves, BAB and hit points), especially if the familiar abilities are tied to caster level instead of wizard level. Although in a build so starved of feats, the bonus feat from Wizard 10 might be worth it.

But if weighted more towards cleric levels the build looks a lot like the gestalt builds (especially gestalt-2), where the BAB and hit points are generally based on 17 cleric and cleric-wizard levels and only 3 wizard levels. They are as feat starved as a gestalt-2 build, too.

Altogether, all the numbers for these builds lie quite close together. If any one of them is balanced, none are very far off.

 

[Gez]

One problem that MT has is that it is dependent on two ability scores instead of just one. This is cruelly exploited by the Gestalt-4 variant since the way you gain more gestalt levels is by foregoing the ability score increases every four levels. Ability boosts are scarce enough as it is, so the trade-off should be very painful.

Yes. The trade-off idea is a very good one. Makes me think one could do a "Gestalt-3" variant -- forego your general feat to get a gestalt level. You have to have levels in both classes you gestalt in, but otherwise, no limitations. So, wizard 1/rogue 1, upon reaching level 3, could get his first gestalt level, but will not have a feat. This variant only offers 6 possible gestalt levels, and deprives you of all feats save bonus feats, maybe making fighter and wizard too powerful compared to other classes.

Hey, one extra restriction could be brought: you have to have the same number of levels in both classes you gestalt in. With 14 regular levels and 6 gestalt levels, that would force characters to be 13/13 rather than 19/7. This is perhaps the harshest option -- high cost, low return. Possibly weaker than the normal rules...

With regard to the CL progression variant that was posted just before the gestalt variants: When you talk about buying access to a spell level with a feat, you mean general feats, right? I presume that a wizard's or fighter's bonus feats could not be used to buy access to a spell level, since spell access doesn't strike me as being either martial, metamagical or related to item creation.

If this is correct then only 6 feats could be spent to gain spell level access. The 1st level feat can't be spent, since the character already has access to spells in his only class.

They can be taken with wizard bonus feats, but obviously not with fighter bonus feats. (See also Eldritch feats from the Complete Book of Eldritch Might.) And you can get access to spells of a level you can not cast yet. It'll help you for scrolls, that's all.