the Jester
Legend
I'm not sure what your goal is here. Are you dissatisfied with mystic theurge, eldritch knight, etc? Are you trying to simplify things, add new options, replace existing ones, etc?
Multige classes and Gestalt levels
- Thread starter Cheiromancer
- Start date
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
I've been thinking about this some more, and while I think that the gestalt-2 variant (no feats traded in) is about equal to the masterclass system (no feats traded in), I think there is a discrepancy when feats are traded in. Consider the following packages:
Package A
fighter level + wizard level + 2 feats
Package B
master fighter level + master wizard level
Package C
2 gestalt fighter-wizard levels
In the master class build you can trade in package A and get package B (when you want 12 master classes instead of only 10). In the gestalt-2 model you trade in package A and get package C (when you want gestalt levels at odd levels). Both packages give you a bonus fighter feat and +2 CL in wizard. Package B gives you +1.5 BAB and (d10+d4) = 8 hp, while package C gives you +2.0 BAB and (d10+d10) = 11 hp. So Package C is worth a fair bit more than Package B.
Now, I have a sneaky suspicion that Package B is probably worth a little more than Package A. But Package C is clearly too good. Which means that it is broken to trade Package A for Package B. So if you use the gestalt-2 system, you shouldn't allow extra gestalt levels to be taken if the cost per gestalt level is only 1 feat.
I also think that the master class system, while better than the vanilla MT and EK builds, is not *too* much better. The gestalt-4 system starts off allowing 11 gestalt levels. So already it is a lot better than the gestalt-2 system which starts off with only 8. It is as if you gave a gestalt-2 build 3 free feats which were then traded in to convert ordinary levels to gestalt levels. Too good.
So, I would say the only non-broken gestalt level variant is the following:
Unfortunately, that won't give you a BAB 16 build with CL 17; the target for a gish build. The best it can do is fighter 3/wizard 9/fighter-wizard 8, with a BAB of 15. It won't even give you a cleric 13/wizard 17 build, which even a mystic theurge can do (best is an 11/17 split) It's just a fact that gestalt builds tend to have better hp, skills and BAB, and so they can't afford to have as good a caster level.
(Actually, if you use a house-ruled Warrior that has a +0.25 BAB every level as a special ability, then you can make a decent gish. Or a feat that can be taken once to give a +1 BAB. Or something. But a wizard/cleric 17/13 would still be out, let alone a 17/17.)
For simplicity, the gestalt-2 mechanic listed above works great. I like it, but I don't know how it can be fixed up to fully solve the multige problem.
Package A
fighter level + wizard level + 2 feats
Package B
master fighter level + master wizard level
Package C
2 gestalt fighter-wizard levels
In the master class build you can trade in package A and get package B (when you want 12 master classes instead of only 10). In the gestalt-2 model you trade in package A and get package C (when you want gestalt levels at odd levels). Both packages give you a bonus fighter feat and +2 CL in wizard. Package B gives you +1.5 BAB and (d10+d4) = 8 hp, while package C gives you +2.0 BAB and (d10+d10) = 11 hp. So Package C is worth a fair bit more than Package B.
Now, I have a sneaky suspicion that Package B is probably worth a little more than Package A. But Package C is clearly too good. Which means that it is broken to trade Package A for Package B. So if you use the gestalt-2 system, you shouldn't allow extra gestalt levels to be taken if the cost per gestalt level is only 1 feat.
I also think that the master class system, while better than the vanilla MT and EK builds, is not *too* much better. The gestalt-4 system starts off allowing 11 gestalt levels. So already it is a lot better than the gestalt-2 system which starts off with only 8. It is as if you gave a gestalt-2 build 3 free feats which were then traded in to convert ordinary levels to gestalt levels. Too good.
So, I would say the only non-broken gestalt level variant is the following:
Unfortunately, that won't give you a BAB 16 build with CL 17; the target for a gish build. The best it can do is fighter 3/wizard 9/fighter-wizard 8, with a BAB of 15. It won't even give you a cleric 13/wizard 17 build, which even a mystic theurge can do (best is an 11/17 split) It's just a fact that gestalt builds tend to have better hp, skills and BAB, and so they can't afford to have as good a caster level.
(Actually, if you use a house-ruled Warrior that has a +0.25 BAB every level as a special ability, then you can make a decent gish. Or a feat that can be taken once to give a +1 BAB. Or something. But a wizard/cleric 17/13 would still be out, let alone a 17/17.)
For simplicity, the gestalt-2 mechanic listed above works great. I like it, but I don't know how it can be fixed up to fully solve the multige problem.
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
the Jester said:
I'm trying to systematize the MT, EK, etc., and thereby make a flexible system that allows viable multiclass combos at high level; not too weak, not too strong, not too complicated. The master class system is more complicated than I would like it. The gestalt system is much simpler (which is why I've been discussing the variants) but I think it is a little broken.
This would replace MT, EK and similar kinds of prestige classes.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Prestige Gestalt...
FYI, thanks to this thread, I am implementing the Gestalt -2 IMC. The restrictions I am placing is a prereq of 5th level, that the character has levels in both of the combined classes, and CL earned by Gestalt spellslingers does not count for spells known.
This eliminates, at least for a game that will not go over 14th level, the major issues with Gestalt as well as with the one of multige characters.
I will keep an eye on this thread for further comment/debate as I have not given my players the specifics on the HR yet
FYI, thanks to this thread, I am implementing the Gestalt -2 IMC. The restrictions I am placing is a prereq of 5th level, that the character has levels in both of the combined classes, and CL earned by Gestalt spellslingers does not count for spells known.
This eliminates, at least for a game that will not go over 14th level, the major issues with Gestalt as well as with the one of multige characters.
I will keep an eye on this thread for further comment/debate as I have not given my players the specifics on the HR yet
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
Primitive Screwhead said:
I'm glad to hear that this discussion has been helpful!
Primitive Screwhead said:
So you are changing the rule that "the first gestalt level must be of classes that are within 1 level of each other"? Would you allow a Fighter 1/Wizard 4 to take gestalt fighter-wizard levels? Such a character (if he took only wizard at odd levels) would be only slightly behind a single-classed wizard, but have much greater combat ability (including much better ray attacks, fort saves and hit points). I think that two levels of fighter would be better. That way the single-classed wizard would always be a full spell level ahead; casting sixth level spells when the fighter-wizard is casting fifth level spells.
One possible response (if you don't like the "within one level of each other" rule) is to simply say that a character has to have two levels of a class before that class can be included in a gestalt combination. It fits the "twoness" theme of the variant.
Primitive Screwhead said:
I don't understand the restriction on spells known. Could you explain what problem you are trying to address?
I will keep an eye on this thread for further comment/debate as I have not given my players the specifics on the HR yet
One thing I am now worrying about is how prestige classes fit into all this. Could a character take gestalt levels at the even levels, and prestige classes at odd levels? I am thinking that a character who takes a gestalt level has to take at least one ordinary level before taking another gestalt level.
This allows a place for non-multige prestige classes to be present in a build with gestalt-2, but won't allow multige classes to overpower the build.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Two fer Twoer
Cheiromancer: Yes, I will require at least 2 levels in the base classes.
As to the spellslingers, one of the main overpowering factors of the Mystic Theurge was advancing in both spells per day and spells known in two classes simultaneuosly. My intent is to have spells per day a different feature than spells known. As such, when taking a Gestalt spellslinger, you could either get a higher Caster Level {CL} or learn higher level spells. I use TEoM, so it will simply be a matter of tracking two seperate CL's, one for gaining MP and another 'Effective CL' for max MP and spell lists known. A caster-mundane build would have the choice of increasing one or the other each level . A caster-caster build would increase in both.
TEoM makes the integration of differeing casters alot easier.
I dont think prestige classes on top of this mechanic would be that much different. Of course, the MT and EK types are excluded, and with TEOM others, such as Arcane Archer, can be disposed with. The ones remaining as desireable in a players mind will be the ones with special abilities like HiPS or the DeepWood Sniper's increased threat ranges.
I don't think it would be a gamestopper to declare the majority of prestige classes as out and create specialized feats for an ability that a player wants to emulate.
An example would be the HiPS, turn that into a feat that can be taken only by a Gestalt with a certain amount of hide and capability to cast illusion spells...
The part that I am worrying about is that I use E-Tools to automate my character generation.. I will basically have to custom build each players class choice in the system as they level up. Oh well, the price I pay for automation!
Cheiromancer: Yes, I will require at least 2 levels in the base classes.
As to the spellslingers, one of the main overpowering factors of the Mystic Theurge was advancing in both spells per day and spells known in two classes simultaneuosly. My intent is to have spells per day a different feature than spells known. As such, when taking a Gestalt spellslinger, you could either get a higher Caster Level {CL} or learn higher level spells. I use TEoM, so it will simply be a matter of tracking two seperate CL's, one for gaining MP and another 'Effective CL' for max MP and spell lists known. A caster-mundane build would have the choice of increasing one or the other each level . A caster-caster build would increase in both.
TEoM makes the integration of differeing casters alot easier.
I dont think prestige classes on top of this mechanic would be that much different. Of course, the MT and EK types are excluded, and with TEOM others, such as Arcane Archer, can be disposed with. The ones remaining as desireable in a players mind will be the ones with special abilities like HiPS or the DeepWood Sniper's increased threat ranges.
I don't think it would be a gamestopper to declare the majority of prestige classes as out and create specialized feats for an ability that a player wants to emulate.
An example would be the HiPS, turn that into a feat that can be taken only by a Gestalt with a certain amount of hide and capability to cast illusion spells...
The part that I am worrying about is that I use E-Tools to automate my character generation.. I will basically have to custom build each players class choice in the system as they level up. Oh well, the price I pay for automation!
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
A more flexible system of using gestalt rules to handle "multige" issues has occurred to me:
This is pretty much the same as the gestalt-2 version, but offers more flexibility as to when the levels can be taken. A wizard 3/cleric 2 could take a gestalt level at level 6, as in gestalt-2, and then alternate base class levels and gestalt levels, again, just as in gestalt-2.
However, it also allows a wizard 8/cleric 2 to take six gestalt levels in a row. A wizard 8/cleric 2/gestalt 6 is allowed under gestalt-2, but the character has to take the levels in the right order; the build is fairly rigid. Gestalt-5 allows characters to get to the same build via a number of different routes. A legal build has at least two levels in any base class involved in a gestalt level, and the number of gestalt levels is at least 4 less than the number of base class levels.
There are a few unimportant differences. Gestalt-2 allows a fighter1/rogue1/ranger3 to take gestalt levels in fighter-rogue (2 levels in each base class are not required, the initial level just needs to be within 1 of each other), but doesn't allow a level of a prestige class to be taken immediately after a gestalt level. This system requires a deeper background in the classes that are going to be merged, but doesn't restrict access to prestige classes. Obviously, levels in a prestige class don't qualify you for more gestalt levels, and obviously the multige classes aren't available if the gestalt-5 rule is followed.
I call it gestalt-5 because it allows the first gestalt level at 5th level. I would have liked gestalt-4, but that name is already taken; it is the name of an (overly powerful) variant that was considered (and rejected) earlier in this thread.
This is pretty much the same as the gestalt-2 version, but offers more flexibility as to when the levels can be taken. A wizard 3/cleric 2 could take a gestalt level at level 6, as in gestalt-2, and then alternate base class levels and gestalt levels, again, just as in gestalt-2.
However, it also allows a wizard 8/cleric 2 to take six gestalt levels in a row. A wizard 8/cleric 2/gestalt 6 is allowed under gestalt-2, but the character has to take the levels in the right order; the build is fairly rigid. Gestalt-5 allows characters to get to the same build via a number of different routes. A legal build has at least two levels in any base class involved in a gestalt level, and the number of gestalt levels is at least 4 less than the number of base class levels.
There are a few unimportant differences. Gestalt-2 allows a fighter1/rogue1/ranger3 to take gestalt levels in fighter-rogue (2 levels in each base class are not required, the initial level just needs to be within 1 of each other), but doesn't allow a level of a prestige class to be taken immediately after a gestalt level. This system requires a deeper background in the classes that are going to be merged, but doesn't restrict access to prestige classes. Obviously, levels in a prestige class don't qualify you for more gestalt levels, and obviously the multige classes aren't available if the gestalt-5 rule is followed.
I call it gestalt-5 because it allows the first gestalt level at 5th level. I would have liked gestalt-4, but that name is already taken; it is the name of an (overly powerful) variant that was considered (and rejected) earlier in this thread.
