Munchkin bashing [rant]

[Eternalknight]

Ok, I understand this isn't going to be popular with everyone, but here goes.

Why is it that a lot of people like to put munchkins, or "rollplayers" down? I know that D&D is a "role-playing game", but don't "roll-players" have just as much right to enjoy D&D as everyone else? After all, if we limit it to just us "role-players" wouldn't the sales of our great game suffer, and as a result there would be less support for it? It constantly amazes me how some people whinge and complain and put some aspect of the game down.

The emphasis there is on the word game. D&D is a GAME. Might be hard for some people to comprehend that. With some of the threads I have seen - not so much here but on the Wizards boards - it seems to me that people take this GAME way to seriously.

Here's a thought: Let "role-players" conduct political negotiations and "roll-players" slay monsters with their +50 flaming shock dragon bane longswords.

And let's stop the munchkin bashing.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Here's a thought: Let "role-players" conduct political negotiations and "roll-players" slay monsters with their +50 flaming shock dragon bane longswords.

And let's stop the munchkin bashing.

*cheer*

 

[Zappo]

Because most of the time munchkins and roleplayers just don't mix. But first of all, let's make the definitions clear (at least, about what they are for me).

A munchkin is anyone who wants to maximize the effectiveness of his character in any given field (combat, politics, whatever), and in order to do so he bends the rules as much as possible and completely disregards what a real character in the setting would do. An example is the typical D&D munchkin, or a Vampire player who plays a Ventrue, places five dots in Persuade, Diplomacy, Bluff, Empathy, takes all the Smooth-Talking-like merits and the physical flaws to get the points, and then calls himself a roleplayer (disclaimer: not all, or even not most, of the Vampire players are like that).

A roleplayer is anyone who decides and possibly writes down a believable background and personality for his character and makes the character behave accordingly, even if it goes against his interest. Because usually real people don't act 100% rationally and can't metagame.

Unfortunately, the two types usually just don't mix.
Munchkins get angry when roleplayers try to do something they don't understand like avoiding a fight with kobolds even if the party has 100% chance of winning because "there have been enough deaths already" or because "it's too risky" even if they know the DM wouldn't use 13th level sorcerer kobolds without making them apparent.
Roleplayers get angry when the DM is forced to throw unbelievable and illogical challenges at the party because otherwise the munchkin with three stats at 18+ and +1 vorpal keen pre-errata bladed gauntlets (or the other munchkin with a total of +35 in Bluff and Diplomacy and three Silent Still Charme spells prepared, with Spell Focus: Enchantment) would just mince (or bluff) through any "reasonable" challenge.

 

[Al]

I think that the animosity occurs at a more deeper and fundamental level than that. This antipathy felt between 'munchkins' and 'roleplayers' comes from their distinct way of viewing roleplaying games.

'Munchkins' tend to view roleplaying games as games that ought to be 'beaten'. As such, they endeavour to try to 'win' the game. They accomplish this by engineering smackdowns appropriate to the campaign: in an intrigue campaign, the guy with all social skills at +50 is a munchkin just as in a dungeon-hack the guy with a +20 Vorpal pre-errata Keen Bladed Gauntlet.

'Roleplayers' tend to view roleplaying games as experiences. They generate characters based on concepts and not on abilities, and do not intend to 'beat' the game. They would like their character to fulfil his or her goals to the best of their ability, but do not derive unnecessary metagame satisifaction from e.g. killing the dragon.

Put crudely, it's a clear divide in RPGs. Roleplayers prefer the RP element; munchkins prefer the G.

 

[Eternalknight]

But shouldn't a DM be able to handle this? I am a role-player (and the DM of my group) and I have another player in the group who is a role-player. Two of my players are, more or less, roll-players, and one is a cross between the two. I have the occasional conflict, but as far as I can recall, never have they argued about this. They each respect each other's style of play.

I just don't understand why people have to argue about this. Shouldn't we be able to respect each other and the way we play?

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Because most of the time munchkins and roleplayers just don't mix...Unfortunately, the two types usually just don't mix.

[sarcasm] I'm glad we live in a world where humans are subdivided into two camps that cannot find ways to get along. Or that the two styles of playing cannot be intergrated into the same person. Or that the two players are human and able to appreciate their differences to make the playing experience enjoyable for all. [/sarcasm]

I guess my point is that munchkinism/roleplayism is a black and white way to spilt the complexity of human behavior, which, as most alignment debates center on, is not a good way of looking at reality. To put a person into one box or another is to limit the scope of human capacity. People can and normally are both types. I consider myself to be both. To say that most people are one or the other does not do justice to the adaptability of RPGers and humans in general.

To say that both styles of gameplay cannot be appeased within a single campaign is to say that the DM and/or players are incapable, which is not to say that rollplaying or roleplaying are broken. Both styles can and should be addressed within a "good" campaign.

Eternalknight is advocating peace and patience towards the munchkins of the world. Why is this a bad thing?

 

[hong]

Eternalknight is advocating peace and patience towards the munchkins of the world. Why is this a bad thing?

Because munchkins are irredeemably evil. Any good-aligned character is duty-bound to kill all the munchkins they meet, if the plague is to be destroyed once and for all.

Why, you might as well ask why killing orc babies is such a bad thing.


Hong "pouring oil on the fire" Ooi

 

[Buttercup]

And how did the munchkin get his or her hands on a +20 Vorpal Keen Longsword of Freezing Fire? Any DM who puts overpowered items like that in the game deserves what she gets. Keep your players poor & hungry, that's what I say.

 

[med stud]

Very well said, Eternalknight!

What I feel is very tiresome too is when some people are discarding all power playing as "munckin" or as something negative almost as a reflex, as if it is impossible to role play well with a twinked character.

And I never seen anyone complain on role players who destroy their powerplaying experience. This must exist in some form, but it is like no one is admitting it.

I think the role playing community is afflicted with a degree of cultural elitism, where one way of doing a thing is automaticly seen as superior to the other ways. Just my 20 öre.

 

[Blacksad]

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We aren't alone Eternalknight!