Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
(+) Mundane fixes to the caster martial divide
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="rmcoen" data-source="post: 9157920" data-attributes="member: 6692404"><p>Had a thought, reading this thread and the numerous similar threads. Two simple fixes that require no new rules, but are endlessly tweakable to your (or your DM's) taste:</p><p></p><p>1) Full casters do not get HP or HD after 5th class level.</p><p></p><p>2) There are no "spells" beyond 4th spell level. (You still gain spell slots.)</p><p></p><p>Full Stop.</p><p></p><p></p><p>As stated, this is fully tweakable, moddable, caveats, etc. For starters, draw "the line" for #1 or #2 wherever you want. I put 5th level for HD to represent the top of "normal" (mundane?) health, being also where every class becomes a powerhouse. I put 4th spell level because it's one shy of raising the dead and teleporting across the planet, but maybe you choose 5th spell level for exactly those reasons.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The first two tweaks that <em>I</em> would probably use:</p><p>* Spells above "the line" still exist, but they are Rituals. Up to the DM how much more costly or difficult the Rituals are... skill checks, more time, more participants, etc. "Come on Kiki, get that <em>tree portal</em> open!"</p><p></p><p>* If you get a bonus spell list from your class, you still have access to those spells <em>as spells</em>. The Life Cleric can still do a <em>mass cure wounds</em> in combat, and always has access to <em>raise dead</em>; the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer still gets <em>telekinesis</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Other thoughts that instantly spring to mind:</p><p>* Hybrid casters: If your class/subclass is not a full caster, but gets spells, reduce your HD size one step after 5th class level. I.e. EKs and Paladins get d8s, Arcane Tricksters get d6s.</p><p></p><p>* Slower HD progression: Instead of "full HD until 5th, then nothing", maybe do "only get HD every odd level, until you have 5" (i.e. at 9th).</p><p></p><p>* Spell Failure: Maybe you implement the numerous ideas for spell failure on these forums, but only after a certain point.</p><p></p><p>* Upcasting Options: Maybe, akin to sorcerous Metamagic, you give a few bonus options when upcasting. The 11th level Wizard's <em>fireball</em> cast with a 5th level spell slot, still does 8d6, but has a 25' diameter. Just to give further spell progression some extra meaning beyond "more power".</p><p></p><p>* Higher level spells take additional time (not "Ritual level time", but like 1 Action/round of casting per spell level).</p><p></p><p>* Variable Proficiency Bonus. I.e. Caster class levels don't increase your PB with weapons; hybrid martials give up some PB progression. (i.e. PF2e, or old 3e Attack Bonus progression that favored the warriors)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Anyway, the idea with this is that maybe martials are already in the "sweet spot". The Fighter attacks the dragon four times with his sword, and facetanks the 80pt breath weapon; the Wizard will melt in that blast, so he takes cover then responds with another buff to the party. The Fighter's "job" never expires - the casters will never be able to match the durability and capability of the martials, but their spells <em>still</em> are powerful and versatile. The Fighter can't <em>fly</em>, after all, or incinerate a dozen bandits (and their horses) as a single action... but he also won't be dropped by a single arrow getting through his defenses!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="rmcoen, post: 9157920, member: 6692404"] Had a thought, reading this thread and the numerous similar threads. Two simple fixes that require no new rules, but are endlessly tweakable to your (or your DM's) taste: 1) Full casters do not get HP or HD after 5th class level. 2) There are no "spells" beyond 4th spell level. (You still gain spell slots.) Full Stop. As stated, this is fully tweakable, moddable, caveats, etc. For starters, draw "the line" for #1 or #2 wherever you want. I put 5th level for HD to represent the top of "normal" (mundane?) health, being also where every class becomes a powerhouse. I put 4th spell level because it's one shy of raising the dead and teleporting across the planet, but maybe you choose 5th spell level for exactly those reasons. The first two tweaks that [I]I[/I] would probably use: * Spells above "the line" still exist, but they are Rituals. Up to the DM how much more costly or difficult the Rituals are... skill checks, more time, more participants, etc. "Come on Kiki, get that [I]tree portal[/I] open!" * If you get a bonus spell list from your class, you still have access to those spells [I]as spells[/I]. The Life Cleric can still do a [I]mass cure wounds[/I] in combat, and always has access to [I]raise dead[/I]; the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer still gets [I]telekinesis[/I]. Other thoughts that instantly spring to mind: * Hybrid casters: If your class/subclass is not a full caster, but gets spells, reduce your HD size one step after 5th class level. I.e. EKs and Paladins get d8s, Arcane Tricksters get d6s. * Slower HD progression: Instead of "full HD until 5th, then nothing", maybe do "only get HD every odd level, until you have 5" (i.e. at 9th). * Spell Failure: Maybe you implement the numerous ideas for spell failure on these forums, but only after a certain point. * Upcasting Options: Maybe, akin to sorcerous Metamagic, you give a few bonus options when upcasting. The 11th level Wizard's [I]fireball[/I] cast with a 5th level spell slot, still does 8d6, but has a 25' diameter. Just to give further spell progression some extra meaning beyond "more power". * Higher level spells take additional time (not "Ritual level time", but like 1 Action/round of casting per spell level). * Variable Proficiency Bonus. I.e. Caster class levels don't increase your PB with weapons; hybrid martials give up some PB progression. (i.e. PF2e, or old 3e Attack Bonus progression that favored the warriors) Anyway, the idea with this is that maybe martials are already in the "sweet spot". The Fighter attacks the dragon four times with his sword, and facetanks the 80pt breath weapon; the Wizard will melt in that blast, so he takes cover then responds with another buff to the party. The Fighter's "job" never expires - the casters will never be able to match the durability and capability of the martials, but their spells [I]still[/I] are powerful and versatile. The Fighter can't [I]fly[/I], after all, or incinerate a dozen bandits (and their horses) as a single action... but he also won't be dropped by a single arrow getting through his defenses! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
(+) Mundane fixes to the caster martial divide
Top