Must a Coup-de-Grace deal damage?

[Ballard_Alvar]

Page 307 PHB
"Damage: A decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by injury, illness, or magical effect."

The statement uses the term "damage" and not "damage delt". There is no "damage" as defined in the glossary.

on post 17 I copied and pasted CdG entry from the SRD provided by WotC. it says

(DC 10 + damage dealt)

edit: querry: What are you trying to say? Which "term" are you speaking of directly? You have a quote from PHB 307 followed by a definition of "Damage". . . Are you talking about the . . ."survives the damage" part? I suppose we now need a definiton of "injury" because a successfull attack was made that delt damage.

 

[Camarath]

on post 17 I copied and pasted CdG entry from the SRD provided by WotC. it says

(DC 10 + damage dealt)

True, but the save only applies if the defender survives the damage. But in this case there is no damage as defined by the glossary.

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

So, Hypothetical:
warforged, helpless, Adamantine Body
Raven deals 4 damage (can't deal 3 per crit), you would agree that it would still need to make a save DC 14, right?

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

from two posts ago, may not have been noted:
edit: querry: What are you trying to say? Which "term" are you speaking of directly? You have a quote from PHB 307 followed by a definition of "Damage". . . Are you talking about the . . ."survives the damage" part? I suppose we now need a definiton of "injury" because a successfull attack was made that delt damage.

 

[Camarath]

[/color]edit: querry: What are you trying to say? Which "term" are you speaking of directly? You have a quote from PHB 307 followed by a definition of "Damage". . . Are you talking about the . . ."survives the damage" part? I suppose we now need a definiton of "injury" because a successfull attack was made that delt damage.

I am talking about this sentence "If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.". Damage is the key term here because if there is no damage the defender can not be said to have survived it and thus does not have to make a save or die.

 

[Camarath]

So, Hypothetical:
warforged, helpless, Adamantine Body
Raven deals 4 damage (can't deal 3 per crit), you would agree that it would still need to make a save DC 14, right?

Yes, if the Raven delt 4 damage the Warforged would have taken 2 damage thus since there is a decrease in hit points there is damage and the Warforged must save 10 + damage dealt or 14. But if the Raven delt 1 damage Warforged would have taken 0 damage thus since there is not a decrease in hit points there is no damage and the Warforged would not have to make a save.

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

I am talking about this sentence "If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.". Damage is the key term here because if there is no damage the defender can not be said to have survived it and thus does not have to make a save or die.

In order to truely get the right answer to this question, it seems we have come down to the definition of the term " injury" from that we could discern how damage is classified, meaning- at what point does DR kick-in? Well, after careful examination of the DR entry. I found the line that screws that up "Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells." This line goes spacifically agianst the definition of "damage delt" in the glossary.


So it looks like it is completely upto interpretation. I realy wish they had edited their books a little better. ohh well, better than 2nd e.

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

Yes, if the Raven delt 4 damage the Warforged would have taken 2 damage thus since there is a decrease in hit points there is damage and the Warforged must save 10 + damage dealt or 14. But if the Raven delt 1 damage Warforged would have taken 0 damage thus since there is not a decrease in hit points there is no damage and the Warforged would not have to make a save.

At least we agree on something

 

[Camarath]

In order to truely get the right answer to this question, it seems we have come down to the definition of the term " injury" from that we could discern how damage is classified, meaning- at what point does DR kick-in?

I am not sure why "injury” needs to be defined since it is not used in the rule in question. But if it was relevant I think it would most likely be synonymous with the term damage. The glossary defines all three terms "deal damage", "take damage", and "damage". Damage is the actual decrease in HP thus as defined in the glossary it comes into being after DR is applied.

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

I am not sure why "injury” needs to be defined since it is not used in the rule in question. But if it was relevant I think it would most likely be synonymous with the term damage. The glossary defines all three terms "deal damage", "take damage", and "damage". Damage is the actual decrease in HP thus as defined in the glossary it comes into being after DR is applied.

The reason why "injury" would need to be defined is that it is a term used to define "damage" and ["injury"] could mean "when there is a successful attack roll and/or an attack hits." Being that the definitions of "Damage Dealt" and "Damage Reduction are contradictory or at least inconsistent, we are unable to yield a sound result with RAW-- basically making it a judgment call by the DM, which it seems to b anyway.