Mutants and Masterminds 3e

[FrogReaver]

You were rude. Or at least it appeared so to me (an outside observer). You didn't get the answer you were looking for so rather than asking for clarification, you immediately dismissed @Reynard 's response and called it "whatever this is" to other people, as though Reynard's answer was meaningless and wasn't even worth commenting on. Had you actually responded back to them and said that they might have misunderstood what you were actually looking for and given them a chance to clarify... it wouldn't have appeared that way.

Now you might not have realized how you came off with your post, but even I (who was just flipping through the thread) read your response and thought "Wow, that was a little harsh." They tried answering what they thought you were asking for and you blew them off and went to everyone else for an answer instead. Again, maybe not your intention... but that's how it appeared to me.

Fair. You are right. I didn’t have to be rude and shouldn’t have been. For that I apologize. @Reynard I apologize for my rudeness.

@DEFCON 1, Though I disagree with your suggested response of me. I should have just ignored his ‘answer’ since it came across rude to me. I could have posted without quoting him, ‘any other answers?’ and accomplished the same thing without the rudeness. Speaking of - why don’t you think his answer to my question was rude?

 

[DEFCON 1]

Fair. You are right. I didn’t have to be rude and shouldn’t have been. For that I apologize. @Reynard I apologize for my rudeness.

@DEFCON 1, Though I disagree with your suggested response of me. I should have just ignored his ‘answer’ since it came across rude to me. I could have posted without quoting him, ‘any other answers?’ and accomplished the same thing without the rudeness. Speaking of - why don’t you think his answer to my question was rude?

That's a good question, and I don't know if my answer really helps all that much. As I didn't really understand the context of your question-- not knowing anything about MM3-- the answer that @Reynard gave seemed like it had meaning and was a reasonable response to my untrained eye. Obviously there was more there that you were looking for beyond just the numbers, but I didn't notice or get that since I didn't truly know what you were asking. So it's quite possible in the context of your question that their answer was brusque and/or rude... I just didn't pick up on it or notice. My apologies. It was the more overt response of yours of "whatever that is" which made me prick up my ears as that seemed more forward-facing and disdainful (whether intended or not).

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

I've had the book in my rpg shelf for a while. Have never had a chance to play it. I've created a few characters in it, though, and I always run into something of a weird situation with effects.

So in M&M each effect is limited by two things: The power level cap and the cost. You can easily lower the cost of a power by adding limitations just as you can increase the cost by adding positive quirks to it. Doing any of those, however, does not actually affect the power level cap and so all that adding limitations to a power does is make the power cheaper.

This is weird, because cheapness boosts your "overall" effectiveness rather than affecting the modified power. After all you can buy more effects now that one of them is cheaper

This leads to a weird situation: It is natural to want to create a power that is stronger but with a particular limitation. However this is not possible, because adding limitation does not affect the power level cap.

So in short: If you want to create a character who has a quirky but stronger attack, you need to deliberately keep all other offensive powers below cap.

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

So in short: If you want to create a character who has a quirky but stronger attack, you need to deliberately keep all other offensive powers below cap.

The usual approach I've seen is to add something (often Penetrating, but there are other choices) to your quirky-but-stronger attack, possibly offsetting the added cost with limitations as part of the quirkiness. The end result is a more effective power that stay at the PL cap and either costs more (sans limitations) or has offsetting drawbacks and the same or similar cost as a "vanilla" capped attack power.

Not so much weird as how the system keeps PLs meaningful but not entirely straightjacketing.

 

[Voadam]

I played some 2e and have a number of 3e books. I always had trouble internalizing a judgment on the damage saving throw and death spiral effect compared to how many hp I have left in baseline d20. I am not a big fan of death spirals, in supers in particularly I feel they lead to a less heroic incentive system in combats.

As a player I played a tough nigh-invulnerable supers concept, Achilles, so that I mostly took no damage and did not sweat it.

 

[FrogReaver]

I've had the book in my rpg shelf for a while. Have never had a chance to play it. I've created a few characters in it, though, and I always run into something of a weird situation with effects.

So in M&M each effect is limited by two things: The power level cap and the cost. You can easily lower the cost of a power by adding limitations just as you can increase the cost by adding positive quirks to it. Doing any of those, however, does not actually affect the power level cap and so all that adding limitations to a power does is make the power cheaper.

This is weird, because cheapness boosts your "overall" effectiveness rather than affecting the modified power. After all you can buy more effects now that one of them is cheaper

This leads to a weird situation: It is natural to want to create a power that is stronger but with a particular limitation. However this is not possible, because adding limitation does not affect the power level cap.

So in short: If you want to create a character who has a quirky but stronger attack, you need to deliberately keep all other offensive powers below cap.

Yea, there’s a hard limit on direct power. I think that’s a good thing. IMO, If you could just put limitations on things to go over cap it would quickly become rock paper scissors.

There seems to be quite a few indirect methods to increase accuracy/‘damage’ output though.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Yea, there’s a hard limit on direct power. I think that’s a good thing. IMO, If you could just put limitations on things to go over cap it would quickly become rock paper scissors.

There seems to be quite a few indirect methods to increase accuracy/‘damage’ output though.

Yeah. My issue is that I approach M&M not as a supers game but as something to run shounen adventures in. Stuff inspired by One Piece, Naruto, Bleach and Demon Slayer. There you run into the whole deal with characters having moves that are useful only given the right circumstances but which are more powerful than their standard fare of moves.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah. My issue is that I approach M&M not as a supers game but as something to run shounen adventures in. Stuff inspired by One Piece, Naruto, Bleach and Demon Slayer. There you run into the whole deal with characters having moves that are useful only given the right circumstances but which are more powerful than their standard fare of moves.

In M&M those would be obtained by spending hero points? Or at least that’s the theory.

I’ve not actually played it yet so cannot actually say.

 

[FrogReaver]

I played some 2e and have a number of 3e books. I always had trouble internalizing a judgment on the damage saving throw and death spiral effect compared to how many hp I have left in baseline d20. I am not a big fan of death spirals, in supers in particularly I feel they lead to a less heroic incentive system in combats.

I don’t think this mechanic is any more death spiraly than hp. It’s more random and not as transparent, but each bruise you take ultimately brings you closer to the next hit knocking you out of the fight.

As a player I played a tough nigh-invulnerable supers concept, Achilles, so that I mostly took no damage and did not sweat it.

Sounds cool.

 

[pawsplay]

If you have one special overpowered attack, what you do is shift it slightly toward damage while making it less accurate (unless it's an area of effect). You tack on some crazy modifiers, and pay for them with some flaws. For instance, you could make your Conflagration power both Distracting and subject to Fades, and tack on two levels of increasing the area of effect.
Then you take the Extraordinary Effort advantage.
Then when you use the power, you apply extra effort twice, and burn a Hero Point if necessary on hitting.
Ka-BOOM. It's not world-shattering power, but it is a go-for-broke move that has some impressive features, and does inch past the PL a little. Even if all it does is make the bad guy take -1 on further damage saves, the GM can still describe how impressively it staggers the foe.

For less specialized results, you can just perform a Power Attack, burn a Hero Point, and call it a super move.

If you just really want one signature ability, you can underbuild a couple of others by two points or so. There are actually some archetypes that are built this way. The core Weapon Master is actually a master of Crippling Strike; their damage capability comes under PL.