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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kaisoku" data-source="post: 4180593" data-attributes="member: 58447">Why is it that whenever anyone tries to suggest a Controller idea, people start shooting it down because it doesn't do EVERYTHING a wizard can do?Maybe it's because there is only one Controller... and the other would-be controller (Warlock) was changed to a striker. It would help a LOT if WOTC folks let us know what is expected out of a Controller, or if they released an additional controller for comparison.So what makes a Controller?Is it simply being a range damager with low hp? An archer with multiple shots per round would follow suit but I've seen that shot down a lot.Is it simply AoE? Then why is it that most of the wizards at-will powers are single target? And couldn't a martial character have a ton of AoE attacks? But I've seen those ideas shot down as well.Maybe we should nail down what we think a Controller class should do *in general* because there appears to be a large disconnect between what people are willing to accept out of a Martial Controller.Personally, here's what I'd view as Controller specific abilities:- Hindering movement for the enemy.- Potential for damage or effect against multiple targets (either burst effects, or secondary effect hits adjacent targets)- Status effects as riders on attacks- Low Armor/Hitpoints (all strikers have similar armor/hitpoints, all leaders and defenders have similar armor/hitpoints, etc). I don't necessarily approve of this myself as it would make more sense to have hitpoints/armor based on ranged vs melee, but there you have it.Here's what I view as Wizard or Arcane specific conditions:- Implement would appear to be Arcane specific.- Elemental Damage/Cantrips are Arcane in nature, shouldn't be considered part of the Controller specifically.- Utility Powers have only been revealed for the Wizard so far, but since everyone is getting them it's hard to say what makes a Utility Power "Controller"-based vs "Leader"-based, etc.However, it's safe to assume that things that screw up the enemy but in a defensive way could be considered Controller focused. Displacement is an interrupt vs 1 attack forcing a reroll. A martial version could be to parry/counter an attack as an immediate action, etc.So what does this mean for a Martial Controller? It seems we'd need the following:- At-Will should either be doing High Damage against Single Target, Low Damage + Rider effect against single target, or Low Damage vs Multiple targets.- Encounter should be doing effects and damage against multiple targets.- Daily should be major in effect and potentially still do decent damage.For the most part, a Martial Artist could fulfill this kind of requirement without breaking a sense of verisimilitude. With things like pressure points, offbalancing attacks, trips, blinding or stunning attacks, disarming, and quick movement to apply these effects against multiple opponents.Since he'll have low armor and hitpoints, it would be fitting to give him high AC/Defense in any round that he is doing movement.. or maybe the AC bonus applies only while he is moving. This is both similar to the Monk in 3e (no armor, but AC bonuses), and allows for a melee range Controller to survive being attacked while doing his effects. Basically, if someone has an responding action, counter, or immediate action while the Martial Artist is running past, he can survive it. Being attacked normally though may be dangerous, especially if not allowed to move.Personal Utility abilities in this case could be to enhance this defensiveness.. gaining an immediate action in response to being attacked to move out of the way or to increase your AC, etc.*Edit*When visioning this it was obvious in my mind, but might not be to others, so I'll expand.The Martial Artist would, by default, have something akin to Spring Attack/Ride-by Attack. Get in, do attacks vs multiple opponents, and get out. During that movement you'd have the Defensive bonus, but once it's the end of your turn, you'd lose it. Utility powers would then give additional options with regards to gaining that AC bonus.This would require a large amount of speed. Since this might imbalance things outside of combat (running speeds, etc), we could call it "burst" speed and only allow it to happen when making your attacks. Essentially, the class might have a slightly higher Speed than the rest, but the Powers themselves will denote the number of targets and thus the distance capable of being travelled as part of the maneuver. This is similar to how each Spell has a "Range" condition, the Martial Artist's Exploits would have something similar to indicate the distance/targets capable of being done.Anyways, just my 2 cents.</blockquote>

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