My Big Beef With the LOTR movies

Sado said:
Oh, and the battle at the end of FotR, 100 orcs vs...Aragorn. And Aragorn is around for Movie #2 after that? A bit too heroic for me.

You did notice that Aragorn quickly had help from Legolas and Gimli? You also noticed that the orcs were fighting a running battle and focused more on the halflings than the other members of the Fellowship? No?
Have you ever had a D&D character fight against such odds and survive? If so, then why sweat it.
 

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I guess it comes down to which departures from the book you like and which you don't. FOTR was about as faithful to the book as any book-inspired movie has ever been, yet it didn't follow it 100%. The fight with the troll didn't happen in the book, yet I didn't think it was an outrage to include it. Having Arwen carry Frodo to Rivendell instead of Glorfindel (?) wasn't a huge departure, as it introduced her nicely into the movies and didn't burden the audience with yet another character to remember. TTT went a lot further in it's departures.. not all for the better, IMO. The warg fight was pretty neat, but Aragorn's 'death' was totally unnecessary, and his 'miraculous' comeback, right after Gandalf's, was one miracle too many. ROTK didn't depart from the book so much as it compressed it... having the Dead at the Pelennor fields, having the Rohirrim just appear at the Pelennor instead of showing the roundabout way they got there, etc; basically, PJ took some shortcuts to keep the movie length down. If not for time constraints, I imagine he would have been happy to film even more than he did for all 3 EEs.
One thing about the translation from book to movie: JRT compressed a lot of the action in the books into a chapter or two, something you can't do so well in a movie. Helm's Deep only takes about a dozen pages in TTT, but it simply couldn't be done so briefly in the movie, without making it feel rushed anyway....
 

Re David's last point: Tolkien's books do a lot of things that were not how prose fiction was conventionally done, then and/or now. The battles could certainly have been shorter, if PJ had wanted them that way: you're confusing tendencies and conventions of modern American movies with the medium itself. (Similarly, people often conflate tropes of D&D with the whole medium of roleplaying.)
 

well, no, my point was that PJ could have done the battles in less time, but it would seem rushed. You can read the chapter on Helm's Deep in about 5 minutes, but if it only spent that much time on screen, you certainly wouldn't be happy with it....
 

And mine is that it wouldn't necessarily have seemed rushed, except to an audience with rigid generic expectations. The uniformity and conventionality of Hollywood, US independent films, European films, and pretty much every other kind is evidence of closed thinking, not the necessary limits of movies. PJ made his Two Towers the film of the Battle of Helm's Deep, and his trailers led the audience to expect that. I don't see why a less battle-skewed approach would have necessarily failed. (Neither am I saying his approach was bad.)
 

ok... personally, I loved the Helm's Deep sequence.... the problems I had with TTT had nothing to do with that part of it anyway.... It could have shortened, I suppose... the wall could have been blown up sooner, the battering ram could have gotten through sooner.... still, I rather liked it the way it was... if the battle scene had been shorter, what else from the book would you have liked to see more of?
 

dontpunkme said:
I'm gonna keep this list fairly short:
1) Where were the sons of Elrond? Would it be too much to show them just a handful of times?

They were a bit part even in the book. The main cast had something like 20 characters for the whole set of movies. Two more would have booged it down even more. And yes, though Arwen was also a fairly minor character, putting the relationship on screen is important because he marries her at the end. Without the backstory, it looks like he's just dumping Eowyn or something.

2) Gimli- I loved him in the books and when we get to the movies he's just insipid comic relief.

Well, I've said before that PJ comes off as kind of an elf fanboy. I mean, look at the dwarf tossing cracks, Legolas catching Gimli by the beard (blasphemy!), and Legolas fighting like some unbeatable invincible uber elf. Perhaps if PJ does The Hobbit as rumored, he'll redress the wrongs done to the dwarves in these movies. :)

3) Another group of missing characters- the Dunedain? Where was the grey company? How can anyone omit them for christ's sake they are the Westernese and the rangers of the north -- Aragorn's most faithful soldiers.

They would have been cool to see, but in the end just a small detail that didn't mess up the whole storyline overall.

4) The Mouth of Sauron - as in yet another character than goes missing and completely ruins the final battle (Let alone, the significance he serves being to Sauron what Sauron was to Melkor). What about the drama when he hands over Frodo's clothes and gear? Oh wait, Sam gave it to Frodo.

Wait for the EE.

5) Limiting the Ents on screen time, let alone no mention of the Entwives.

All the Ents really did in the book was wreck Isengard. That was in TTT. The Entwives were mentioned in the TT EE.

6) TOM BOMBADIL - seems to me from my rememberance of the books Tom Bombadil happens to put the ring on to no effect to his person. Let alone cutting out the fantastic barrow wight scenes. Hi Ho what the hell?

Bombadil would have been very risky to include in the movie. First he's a side plot that would risk derailing the whole movie. You build up this whole threat of the Nazgul chasing them, and then they cool their heels in the backwoods for 3 days. Also, you'd need the right actor for the part, a badly cast Bombadil would hurt the movie far more than no Bombadil. The Old Forest is a part of the FotR that causes a lot of people to give up on the book. And lastly, he'd add at least another half hour to a movie already 3 hours long, and which rushed parts of the plot.

7) Way to completely ruin the whole men under the mountain scene. Let alone how fantastic they lead into the battle on the fields of Pelennor.

You mean the Druedain? Yes, it's a shame they were left out, I would have liked to have seen Ghan-buri-Ghan myself. But once again, it's a small detail that would have made little difference on film.

I'm not going to get into the intro cutting out the backstory or how Merry and Peregrin actually deviously ambush Frodo before he leaves on his journey.

How much backstory do you want? They backstory of the Ring is given at the very beginning of the first movie. Yes, it simplifies a lot, but all of the important points are touched on. Remeber that Gandalf tells Frodo in the book that telling the whole history of the Ring would takes months. Even at the council of Elrond, Elrond gives a brief history, and it takes him from midmorning to nearly noon. As for the story of Numenor, it's a shame that it is very lightly touched upon, but that would bog down the movies with even more exposition.

Merry and Pippin do not ambush Frodo. They simply bump into him and Sam by accident and are caught up in the hunt for the Ring.
 
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KenM said:
I kind of agree with you about Gimli. I hope the drinking game scene in RotK EE fixes this. If Legolas beats Gimli at it, I will be very PO'ed. I would have liked just ONE SCENE where the dwarf does something better than the pretty boy elf.
From "theonering.net":
But there's a nice addition: a drink game, in which Legolas and Gimli bet who will drink more. After tens of jugs, Gimli first farts, and then says "It’s the dwarves that go swimming with the little, hairy women"; finally belchs. Legolas seems to give away, but when Gimli begins to claim victory – it's him who falls down shattered. "Game Over", says the elf.
 

Berandor said:
From "theonering.net":


Crap, would it be too much for PJ to put in ONE SCENE where the dwarf does something better then the elf? This really makes me mad. Equal treatment. Everyone knows dwarves can drink elves under the table, this one scene will destroy all three movies for me.
 

KenM said:
Crap, would it be too much for PJ to put in ONE SCENE where the dwarf does something better then the elf? This really makes me mad. Equal treatment. Everyone knows dwarves can drink elves under the table, this one scene will destroy all three movies for me.
Though I like Elves...agreed(though it doesn't ruin the movies for me). PJ just seems to be trying his absolute best to emphasize a more 1st Age type Elf in Legolas.
 
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