My campaign has reached a new, exciting level.

[BSF]

I don't want to sound too harsh, but have you read the spells? How does a group pull off the B-S-T combo? Scrying has a casting time of 1 hour, a cumbersome (at best) focus, gives a Will save, and 1 min/level duration. Teleport can be seriously inaccurate, even dangerous, without familiarity of the target location. And the most common and powerful buffs have very limited durations.

Quasqueton

Well, I daresay that Wizardru has a firm grasp on Teleport as well as how players will attempt to exploit Scry-Buff-Teleport. He does run one high level campaign, as evidenced in his Story hour. (BTW - Wizardru, if you follow the link in your .sig, it takes you to a cyberstreet address. I PM'd you with the more accurate address.) The tactic still has potential to work and the question really comes down more to what risks to pull it off are your players willing to accept.

In any event, welcome to the wonder world of Teleport! Higher level transport spells change the nature of the challenges of the game. Relatively recently, the DM for the group I play in missed to fact that we were high enough to use Wind Walk. We had a mission to complete that included a potential multi-week overland journey through a variety of terrains. Since we were running on a tight timeframe, we decided to Windwalk the journey in just about a day. Unfortunately, I think he had been spending a lot of prep time on encounters we would have along the way.

If I were to offer any advice, it would be to start being a little more aggressive with encounters. The PC's now have the potential to pop back to town for supplies if they need them. They have the potential to travel across the nation to warn that outpost that a surprise attack will be coming. They have the potential to respond to any number of things. Start integrating those possibilities into your game. Don't be afraid to create situations that require those types of magic to solve. Only somebody with the same types of power that the heroes have can hope to solve the mystery, or to retrieve the item, or to save the day. You are moving into the range where the work and perseverance that made the PCs heroes at lower levels is paying off so that they are the ones with the powers, and the desire to use them, to save the day. It can be fun to watch them look at a situation and keep looking for a mundane answer that doesn't exist. Finally, they realize the only solution is higher level magic and then they start to understand that they have earned their wings, in a manner of speaking.

 

[Storminator]

Well, I daresay that Wizardru has a firm grasp on Teleport as well as how players will attempt to exploit Scry-Buff-Teleport. He does run one high level campaign, as evidenced in his Story hour. (BTW - Wizardru, if you follow the link in your .sig, it takes you to a cyberstreet address. I PM'd you with the more accurate address.) The tactic still has potential to work and the question really comes down more to what risks to pull it off are your players willing to accept.

But at Wizardru's level it's more likely to be Greater Scry and Greater Teleport, which is vastly more effective.

PS

 

[BSF]

But at Wizardru's level it's more likely to be Greater Scry and Greater Teleport, which is vastly more effective.

PS

Certainly! But, the players did cut their teeth on the lower level versions.

I have never had any of my players try S-B-T, oddly enough. Of course, they also have a hard time thinking of using divinations of any flavor. Perhaps they will try it one day though.

 

[welby]

Actually, there's a lot of satisfaction in a well-executed hit-and-run, welby. Nothing makes characters feel as cool as identifying their objective, then going directly to it, accomplishing it, and getting out cleanly. Hard work and perseverance can make a victory sweet, sure, but there's a special kind of sweetness that you only get from a perfect hit-and-run. etc. etc.
ryan

Some interesting points Herpes, but I'm not sure I personally could find long term fun in that. It just doesn't fit in with the campaigns I usually find myself in. Nice to hear the other side though

 

[Will]

Useful (and often forgotten) limitation: A thin sheet of lead COMPLETELY blocks scry and similar effects.

While this does not block teleport, it makes it that much harder to get a 'lock.'

Naturally, every 10th+ guy should lead sheet his castles.

 

[Len]

But at Wizardru's level it's more likely to be Greater Scry and Greater Teleport, which is vastly more effective.

You mean, at Scorch's level.
Credit where credit is due.

I would look forward to the day when we can teleport, but so far no PC in my group has cast an arcane spell.

 

[WizarDru]

(BTW - Wizardru, if you follow the link in your .sig, it takes you to a cyberstreet address. I PM'd you with the more accurate address.) The tactic still has potential to work and the question really comes down more to what risks to pull it off are your players willing to accept.

Just got it. Thanks for that. Fixed it. Not really sure how I got it back to the cyberstreet version, so I'm glad you mentioned it.

If I were to offer any advice, it would be to start being a little more aggressive with encounters. The PC's now have the potential to pop back to town for supplies if they need them. They have the potential to travel across the nation to warn that outpost that a surprise attack will be coming. They have the potential to respond to any number of things. Start integrating those possibilities into your game. Don't be afraid to create situations that require those types of magic to solve.

Wise words, all. Case in point: we reached a new plateau in a recent session: the party cleric was in a pocket dimension called 'the library', created by the mage's guild. He was working on a magic item for the party's use, when some of the party fell under attack, about a quarter mile away. He used a Gate spell to instantly arrive on the scene. The party was alternately horrified and amused at such a turn of events. "Wait...did you just use a 9th level spell to save yourself a two rounds of travel?!?" Said the player, with a smirk: "Yup."

High level play is different from low level play, but can be equally fun. As surmised above, B-S-T stands for Buff-Scry-Teleport. Yes, the Scry spell can take an hour...lower level parties actually do Scry-Buff-Teleport, instead....unless they have a crystal ball, but at 42,000 gp, not likely at mid-levels. With Scry lasting 1 minute/level, they can watch their targets, make sandwiches, get a drink, go to the bathroom and THEN teleport and attack. Besides which, S-B-T doesn't sound as good.

My players clawed their way up from 1st level under 3e, and now run full bore under 3.5. I can assure you that the game can function just fine without needlessly limiting spells like Teleport. BardStephenFox is spot on as far as challenges are concerned: the CR system is wonky at higher levels and should be taken with a greater grain of salt...and combats tend to be less frequent, and thus should be more challenging as PCs will be more desirous of using their resources. Witness the use of the Gate spell, above.

I also want to echo what HC said. Some of the most satisfying battles that have happened in our high-level game have occured as part of a carefully orchestrated tactical strike. They almost never work as planned (which is part of the fun, IMHO), but when they succeed, the succeed admirably. Taking the fight to the enemy is part of high-level play, and it's a GOOD part of high-level play. Consider examples in Piratecat's Story Hour, mine and Sepulchrave (where the phrase 'Scry and Fry' originated).

Piratecat puts it best. He doesn't design an adventure to thwart high-level powers, but to require them. Players have Teleport? Great. Force them to use it. But how many do they get in a day? How many can they afford to memorize, and what needs to be sacrificed to do so? Will the party become dependent on the Wizard having six teleports memorized daily? What happens if he doesn't? What happens if he falls in combat? Destan's group recently found out the hard way, when the party sorcreror teleported half the group, and then got attacked at the drop-zone, effectively cutting the party in half, as he was the lynchpin for the teleport spell.

One lesson I learned about high-level play: don't sweat the details. Players are smart...devious, even. Make a difficult challenge, and let them use their ingenuity to work it out. Find the weaknesses of many spells, and use them. Teleport has a relatively finite range, for example, both in weight and distance. Enforce it. Plane Shift rarely takes a group to their intended desitination: in fact, as often as not, a plane shift is usually followed by another transport spell to reach the intended destination (be it Windwalk, Teleport, or what have you).

You mean, at Scorch's level.
Credit where credit is due

Heh. That would be Guildmaster Scorch, now. Or, as we like to call him "LAWGIVER Scorch". Hard to believe the same wizard who was ecstatic when he mastered the fireball spell so long ago is now rebuilding the guild as it's new guildmaster (although little of those details make the story hour, regrettably). Who knew empire building could be so much fun.

 

[Will]

Yeah. Keep in mind that if they are using teleport, they are not using other spells. And a mischance... woe unto the wizard who runs out of teleports at an inopportune moment.

Of course, our party's big discovery was how dammmn useful a Rod of Absorption is at high levels. Can we say 'mana battery'?

 

[Vrecknidj]

My players have been using this technique for a while now. There are two scriers and they do a find job. But, the baddies have caught on.

1) The teleporter isn't a person, it's a rock (I know, I know, this sounds like NWN, sorry). And there's a catch, it can only be activated by females. The bad guys haven't found this out yet, for sure, but they have noticed that the group always teleports in with a female in the middle, and they always leave with a female in the middle. So, the bad guys always target females now.

2) The baddies have begun hiring wizards and clerics to cast and/or research spells to misdirect scrying. Better than blocking scrying is to give the players false information. Tell them that there's a blue dragon when there's a red one (so much for Protection from Electricity). Tell them that there are trolls when there are basilisks instead, etc.

The combination of these two retaliations have given the players pause. Their characters have to be much more ready to adapt, and are much less able to catch their targets with their pants down (as it were).

Dave

 

[Rackhir]

Consider examples in Piratecat's Story Hour, mine and Sepulchrave (where the phrase 'Scry and Fry' originated).

Wasn't Wulf's Story hour where that came from? Or maybe The Liberation of Tehn?