My Dragon Killed a PC and lives to tell the tale!
- Thread starter Cloudgatherer
- Start date
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Hm...lots of questions...
My players, don't read this as it will spoil some of the mystery.
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1) Surprise round: The blue had a surprise round when he zapped the rogue with his lit breath.
2) Spell buffing: The party hid when it saw the blue. Not a great indicator of a powerful party requiring buffing spells.
3) Spells in combat: None. The dragon could either cast a 2nd level spell or make an attack. Given the dragon's attack routine, a 2nd level spell seemed silly.
4) Party knowledge: They were informed ahead of time of the breath weapon.
5) Cohorts: I don't see anything in the MM under "dragon society" about cohorts. In any event, this dragon is a recent immigrant to the mountains, and doesn't have any....yet.
6) Magic items: Honestly, the dragon doesn't have anything effective. He has a couple scrolls and money and that's about it (treasure generated randomly).
7) Coming back: The dragon still has this option open to him...since he saved his spells he can do just that! (but we stopped for the evening, so yes, the dragon can use his spells to heal and then come back to finish off the rest of them).
8) Horses: The horses already felt like running in the direction they were sent. Letting the horses run away was fine.
9) Spell like abilities: This blue only has sound imitation. Could have used it, but took a more direct approach in dealing with the party.
10) Burrowing: The terrain was more or less rock. The description text made it sound like the blue would only burrow through sand or a similar substance, so I did not use burrowing. I can also save this for the lair.
11) Waiting: The dragon was in a good position to blast the first target with his lit breath, so he waited for the party to react. He *almost* had the party hand over all their gold to him, without a fight. An intelligent tactic IMO, gaining several thousand gp for scaring away a few humans.
12) Dragon's feats: Hover, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Snatch, Improved Initiative. And since I know you'll ask, the blue isn't 4 size categories bigger than medium, so he could not use them all to their full effect. He did make use of power attack (and I should have used hover to get away, but did not remember).
13) Party damage: Did I mention there are 8 in the party? Most of the damage came from the dead ranger who has "dragons" as her favored enemy (first favored enemy). Second damage dealer was the party wizard, who was hasted during the battle (although more than half of his spells failed SR, so the dragon was not as concerned with him). The party also makes use of GMW, bull's strength, endurance, prayer, and a bard's song. The 5/+1 DR wasn't an issue, the party has magic weaponry or uses a GMW weapon (mostly GMW arrows). The two fighters also dealt damage as well as the rogue with a few arrows from a distance.
The dragon did kill the ranger and *severely* depleted the party's spells. He's still got options and knows who can do what in the next battle (I'm fairly confident the party will want a rematch). If the party had been a little better organized, they could have killed the dragon (or forced his retreat earlier) without suffering the casualty. It is a winnable encounter, only +2 EL higher than the party's.
My players, don't read this as it will spoil some of the mystery.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
1) Surprise round: The blue had a surprise round when he zapped the rogue with his lit breath.
2) Spell buffing: The party hid when it saw the blue. Not a great indicator of a powerful party requiring buffing spells.
3) Spells in combat: None. The dragon could either cast a 2nd level spell or make an attack. Given the dragon's attack routine, a 2nd level spell seemed silly.
4) Party knowledge: They were informed ahead of time of the breath weapon.
5) Cohorts: I don't see anything in the MM under "dragon society" about cohorts. In any event, this dragon is a recent immigrant to the mountains, and doesn't have any....yet.
6) Magic items: Honestly, the dragon doesn't have anything effective. He has a couple scrolls and money and that's about it (treasure generated randomly).
7) Coming back: The dragon still has this option open to him...since he saved his spells he can do just that! (but we stopped for the evening, so yes, the dragon can use his spells to heal and then come back to finish off the rest of them).
8) Horses: The horses already felt like running in the direction they were sent. Letting the horses run away was fine.
9) Spell like abilities: This blue only has sound imitation. Could have used it, but took a more direct approach in dealing with the party.
10) Burrowing: The terrain was more or less rock. The description text made it sound like the blue would only burrow through sand or a similar substance, so I did not use burrowing. I can also save this for the lair.
11) Waiting: The dragon was in a good position to blast the first target with his lit breath, so he waited for the party to react. He *almost* had the party hand over all their gold to him, without a fight. An intelligent tactic IMO, gaining several thousand gp for scaring away a few humans.
12) Dragon's feats: Hover, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Snatch, Improved Initiative. And since I know you'll ask, the blue isn't 4 size categories bigger than medium, so he could not use them all to their full effect. He did make use of power attack (and I should have used hover to get away, but did not remember).
13) Party damage: Did I mention there are 8 in the party? Most of the damage came from the dead ranger who has "dragons" as her favored enemy (first favored enemy). Second damage dealer was the party wizard, who was hasted during the battle (although more than half of his spells failed SR, so the dragon was not as concerned with him). The party also makes use of GMW, bull's strength, endurance, prayer, and a bard's song. The 5/+1 DR wasn't an issue, the party has magic weaponry or uses a GMW weapon (mostly GMW arrows). The two fighters also dealt damage as well as the rogue with a few arrows from a distance.
The dragon did kill the ranger and *severely* depleted the party's spells. He's still got options and knows who can do what in the next battle (I'm fairly confident the party will want a rematch). If the party had been a little better organized, they could have killed the dragon (or forced his retreat earlier) without suffering the casualty. It is a winnable encounter, only +2 EL higher than the party's.
reapersaurus
Explorer
Thanks for the replies.
more comments:
2) Here's where you were being easy on your players, IMO.
A dragon (as many people have mentioned as a reason for them not knowing adventurers that well) doesn't see them that often.
So to NOT buff up with the spells he has is just not being smart. That's pretty straight-forward.
He could have cast Mage Armor, Shield, and Bull's Strength, or Endurance (an extra 21-42 HP's can't hurt) or many others.
Key: It's not like he's saving them for anything ELSE more exciting during the day, do you think?
3) Since he wouldn't cast 2nd level spellsin combat (I agree), than his spells are useless unless you have him use them to attack that day and get lunch (or entertainment, perhaps)
4) So the party knows the dragons's weakness and strenghts, but the dragon doesn't know the party's (reflected in EL?)
5) I meant ANY help the dragon can get. Henchmen, Charmed agents, etc. Many people have put forth good examples why a dragon would not only have himself as a weapon.
6) Now this i think is an oversight.
This adult dragon is on average 150 years old.
150 years!
I'm sure he could have gotten some effective treasure in that much time, considering that adventurers get effective stuff within months of starting their careers.
7) Ya, the dragon still hasn't even had the advantage of home turf (i.e. his DEN)
What are the PC's planning to do? Wander around on the mountain till they find the den?
If they persist, you should have the dragon healed and buffed with plenty of areas where he can actually USE his feats, flying, and burrowing to good effectiveness.
9) He should also have Ventriloquism, right? Not much good unless he learned Common in those 150 years, I guess.
12) I think you should have used the feats more, if possible, or keep them in mind next combat, if there is one.
13) Speaking of the next combat, I think your PC's would be suicidal to try again.
The dragon wouldn't play footsies with them again, and there are 7 left.
It seems to me it would be VERY easy to FlyBy Attack and waste at least 2 or 3 in 'strafing/snatching runs' IF you want to use your dragon's abilities against your PC's.
And that's IF he attacks them alone (which doesn't make sense - he's outnumbered)
more comments:
2) Here's where you were being easy on your players, IMO.
A dragon (as many people have mentioned as a reason for them not knowing adventurers that well) doesn't see them that often.
So to NOT buff up with the spells he has is just not being smart. That's pretty straight-forward.
He could have cast Mage Armor, Shield, and Bull's Strength, or Endurance (an extra 21-42 HP's can't hurt) or many others.
Key: It's not like he's saving them for anything ELSE more exciting during the day, do you think?
3) Since he wouldn't cast 2nd level spellsin combat (I agree), than his spells are useless unless you have him use them to attack that day and get lunch (or entertainment, perhaps)
4) So the party knows the dragons's weakness and strenghts, but the dragon doesn't know the party's (reflected in EL?)
5) I meant ANY help the dragon can get. Henchmen, Charmed agents, etc. Many people have put forth good examples why a dragon would not only have himself as a weapon.
6) Now this i think is an oversight.
This adult dragon is on average 150 years old.
150 years!
I'm sure he could have gotten some effective treasure in that much time, considering that adventurers get effective stuff within months of starting their careers.
7) Ya, the dragon still hasn't even had the advantage of home turf (i.e. his DEN)
What are the PC's planning to do? Wander around on the mountain till they find the den?
If they persist, you should have the dragon healed and buffed with plenty of areas where he can actually USE his feats, flying, and burrowing to good effectiveness.
9) He should also have Ventriloquism, right? Not much good unless he learned Common in those 150 years, I guess.
12) I think you should have used the feats more, if possible, or keep them in mind next combat, if there is one.
13) Speaking of the next combat, I think your PC's would be suicidal to try again.
The dragon wouldn't play footsies with them again, and there are 7 left.
It seems to me it would be VERY easy to FlyBy Attack and waste at least 2 or 3 in 'strafing/snatching runs' IF you want to use your dragon's abilities against your PC's.
And that's IF he attacks them alone (which doesn't make sense - he's outnumbered)
Someone mentioned earlier that snatch is not as useful because of the dragon's size.
Now,
From MM p. 61:
Well, we can argue that Snatch is a specialized form of grapple attack, but it is still a grapple attack and so I belive that MM is trying to say that most dragons don't favor this move.
Just clarifying a few thing...
Now,
From MM p. 61:
Well, we can argue that Snatch is a specialized form of grapple attack, but it is still a grapple attack and so I belive that MM is trying to say that most dragons don't favor this move.
Just clarifying a few thing...
A suggestion for Cloudgatherer,
why don't you team the dragon up with this arch-villain of yours. If the party is enough of a threat (or annoyance), the villain may have scryed on the party as the fight took place. Noticed the blue dragon...sees a possible vehicule of destruction for the PC that might mean less expenditure in his part...and offers the dragon a temporary alliance (or a full-fledged longterm alliance cemented with the defeat of the party) of convenience...and yadda yadda...
What do you think?!
why don't you team the dragon up with this arch-villain of yours. If the party is enough of a threat (or annoyance), the villain may have scryed on the party as the fight took place. Noticed the blue dragon...sees a possible vehicule of destruction for the PC that might mean less expenditure in his part...and offers the dragon a temporary alliance (or a full-fledged longterm alliance cemented with the defeat of the party) of convenience...and yadda yadda...
What do you think?!
Wolfspider
Explorer
Very good critique, Reapersaurus. You're very perceptive.
I agree that the dragon, while it was hovering in the air observing the party, should have used its magical spells to prepare itself for the possibility of combat. Like Reapersaurus said, this creature is 150 years old. It's far from the diaper stage that others have cited as being the reason younger dragons are less intelligent in their tactics.
While it would have been cool (and frightening for the party) to have the dragon start burrowing through the rock to get to them, I agree with Cloudgatherer's reading of the Monster Manual entry. Under burrow it says that a creature cannot burrow through rock unless the descriptive text indicates otherwise, and the descriptive text for blue dragons just mentions sand.
One big thing that struck me from Cloudgather's recent post is the fact that there were EIGHT characters in the party. That's double the recommended amount to fight the dragon (according to the rules of CR, which I'm not so surefooted about), so the dragon was naturally at a great disadvantage facing the party(which makes the fact that it did fare pretty well testimony to the strength of dragons).
I also found it very strange that the blue dragon didn't speak common. It has a 16 Intelligence and a massive number of skill points. Why did you decide that it didn't understand the common tongue? If it had, then it could have used its supernatural senses to eavesdrop on the party as they made their plans, putting the kibosh on any surprises.
The dragon would have also had a chance to identify any spells with verbal components that the party's wizard had cast by using its Spellcraft skill (and it would have Spellcraft, being a spell-using dragon). Of course, if the wizard openly described what he was doing ("Hey, let me cast this haste spell on you!"), then the dragon would not have had to even make a roll. Consequently, it would have possibly known about the haste spells and perhaps the elemental resistance spells (depending on when these were cast--before or after meeting the dragon).
Just some things to consider for the rematch....
I agree that the dragon, while it was hovering in the air observing the party, should have used its magical spells to prepare itself for the possibility of combat. Like Reapersaurus said, this creature is 150 years old. It's far from the diaper stage that others have cited as being the reason younger dragons are less intelligent in their tactics.
While it would have been cool (and frightening for the party) to have the dragon start burrowing through the rock to get to them, I agree with Cloudgatherer's reading of the Monster Manual entry. Under burrow it says that a creature cannot burrow through rock unless the descriptive text indicates otherwise, and the descriptive text for blue dragons just mentions sand.
One big thing that struck me from Cloudgather's recent post is the fact that there were EIGHT characters in the party. That's double the recommended amount to fight the dragon (according to the rules of CR, which I'm not so surefooted about), so the dragon was naturally at a great disadvantage facing the party(which makes the fact that it did fare pretty well testimony to the strength of dragons).
I also found it very strange that the blue dragon didn't speak common. It has a 16 Intelligence and a massive number of skill points. Why did you decide that it didn't understand the common tongue? If it had, then it could have used its supernatural senses to eavesdrop on the party as they made their plans, putting the kibosh on any surprises.
The dragon would have also had a chance to identify any spells with verbal components that the party's wizard had cast by using its Spellcraft skill (and it would have Spellcraft, being a spell-using dragon). Of course, if the wizard openly described what he was doing ("Hey, let me cast this haste spell on you!"), then the dragon would not have had to even make a roll. Consequently, it would have possibly known about the haste spells and perhaps the elemental resistance spells (depending on when these were cast--before or after meeting the dragon).
Just some things to consider for the rematch....
Last edited:
Cloudgatherer
First Post
The dragon recently migrated to the area, has not lived among humans before, and did not have a good reason why he would have learned common originally. Now that he lairs close to people, it will be a language he will pick up as he gets older.
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Ruvion said:why don't you team the dragon up with this arch-villain of yours. If the party is enough of a threat (or annoyance), the villain may have scryed on the party as the fight took place. Noticed the blue dragon...sees a possible vehicule of destruction for the PC that might mean less expenditure in his part...and offers the dragon a temporary alliance (or a full-fledged longterm alliance cemented with the defeat of the party) of convenience...and yadda yadda...
That would just be evil.... I currently have their villain busy dealing with a goblin/orc invasion of his kingdom (in which he is the only known wizard).
Hm... maybe I could have the party come across the dragon and the wizard while they are discussing terms of an agreement. Might strike some fear into them (er, more fear that is).
Wolfspider
Explorer
I see. Your role-playing your dragon carefully and logically, then. I only wish players would be so creative when thinking of why their characters speak draconic and other exotic languages....
By the way, how did your bard pick it up?
Cloudgatherer
First Post
It was one of the languages he took when he created his character. This is fine with me, as he wrote a great background that includes his character travelling outside the scope of my campaign world (he goes passed where my map ends), so it was reasonable to me. The bard is also in his late 30's, to account for his worldly experience and travelling.
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