My Dungeon Doesn't Have Corridors

wcpfish

First Post
Just re-read Greg Bilsland's excellent piece about how his dungeons do contain empty rooms (here). This article made me think...a lot...about my own DMing style. It has changed a ton in nearly 30 years behind the shield. And I realized that in 4th edition my dungeons definitely do not have empty rooms...they don't even have corridors. Check out my site to see what I mean....front page, feature article currently up on Escape Velocity Gaming.

Thanks for checking it out....agree with me? disagree? As a designer and publisher of material for 4e, I definitely want to know how people are actually playing the game and whether or not they believe empty rooms fit in with 4e design philosophy and any other thoughts you might have!

Happy Gaming!
William C. Pfaff
President of Escape Velocity Gaming
 
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Incenjucar

Legend
I prefer not to simply skip to the fight scenes and just gloss over the rest. The empty areas can be worth narrating in detail, and occasionally a vague map, as is often used in Encounters, can be good for saving you from some questions, but I don't feel the need to always map everything, either, unless the quest area is truly part of the scenario - but then I'm not into sprawling dungeons.

They're all valid methods. Depends what the DM is good with and what the players prefer.
 

jbear

First Post
I can understand your point of view, and I wouldn't go as far as to say I disagree with it, but I do also believe that the change of pace from nearly lost, not knowing quite where to go, which door to open, which corridor to head down, or even how to get into the lair you know must be benath your feet but the entrance is not plainly signposted, all the way through the varying ranges of tension to stumble into those exciting moments does add something to those exciting moments.

Does an empty room do it for me? Not really, either. But rooms that do have interesting, relevant (though not necessarily obvious at first) features that have neither a battle waiting to break out or a cleverly devised trap hidden hanging on the coat rack, can add as you say in your blog, mood, but also meaning to what the adventurers are involved in.

I've had a few moments with my players fairly recently where they simply didn't know how to proceed. They were aware that the Horde's lair was beneath the ruins of the castle they had entered (whose upper levels was initially being used by a cult to open a doorway to where the 'true' castle and its inhabitants had been trapped in time and space, playing out the same day over and over for all eternity).

After tangling themselves unneccesarily with said cult, being trapped momentarily in a medieval Groundhog's day, somewhere a step outside space and time, til they removed the Curse (of the Kingspire) and returning to the present where the castle remained in rubble, its ghosts now laid to rest, my brave heroes couldn't figure out how to get into the blasted lair they had wanted to get into in the first place.

This was very frustrating for them. The most obvious entrance had an Iron Maiden that seeped blood and did frightening amounts of continuous psychic damage just for simply having laid eyes on it. That was a closed door as far as they were concerned. And rightly so, there was a far better entrance on the other side of the castle, covered cleverly (though not too cleverly) by blocks and rubble that lead to the Horde's lair. That needed for them to explore the castle properly and do some searching.

How they grizzled! After so many set backs they just wanted in. One of my players, looking at me with puppy dog eyes, said: 'Just tell us where to go'. My response was of course: ' And the clouds part, and you see a giant flashing neon hand emerge from the sky pointing as a voice booms: Go ye this way o brave but slightly disorientated adventurers!'
... to which my player replied: Are you serious?
And I said no.

For me it was a tricky situation. I don't want my players feeling bored or frustrated but I don't want to lead them around by the nose either, otherwise I might as well just play by myself. (I'd quite like to hear ideas about how this situation can be better handled)

So here we spent some time, had some not so exciting movements getting properly oriented in the castle and having a look around. And finally the barbarian fell into the Horde's Lair.

The Horde's lair, a two level dungeon using the Rescue at Rivenroar adventure module as its base. My players were level 7 when they arrived here so I got creative and adjusted the encounters to an appropriate challenge.

I didn't want them to have to deal with so many encounters in the dungeon so I designed a skill challenge whereby depending on their success the party could bring together 4 or 5 of the encounters on the first level and wipe them out with one fell blow. Which worked fantastically and made for quite a few 'empty rooms' as the party searched for the prisoners and the entrance to the second level (where the exciting stuff awaited).

Which they completely couldnt find. I even sketched a rough map out for them of the areas they had searched. Which was as much help as I was prepared to offer. Again, maybe I was wrong here? Should I have just brushed it over with some 'flavour text' and said after a bit of repassing your own tracks you find the stairway that leads to the second level?

I don't know. Because this second frustrating 'don't know where to go' moment, lead them to walk out the front door with the Bleeding Iron Maiden, which for some unknown reason they decided to tangle with and hence bring the trapped roof down upon their heads, crushing one of their rescued prisoners to death. I enjoyed this encounter immensely. My players not so much as they realised they had simply walked up and out back into the upper levels of the ruins of the castle and once again inexplicably chosen to get into yet another unneccessary tangle.

Again I didn't know how much I should just point out what was in front of their eyes on the map but they weren't seeing.

I decided to use coloured felt to mark the dungeon in a way that they could understand it better (as it has a few ups and downs, but only one staircase that leads to the 2nd level). Finally something clicked and they suddenly understood the map and saw where it was they could reach the next level. Again, would it have been better to just point to the map and say, 'Here, go here!' ?

Already a bit beaten and bruised by the Iron Maiden Trap they wanted to go directly to the Big Baddie.

The first room of the second level effectively was 'an empty room' as the encounter that occupied it had been sent to check what was going on the night before disturbing the PCs as they attempted to rest after exploring the first level. But one of the prisoners was in this room, very recently dead (while they rested), but still hanging naked in some dark ritual, surrounded by circles grooved into the ground filled with her own blood.

I had managed to impress on them the magnitude of evil throbbing in the place and the danger that was palpable. The tension in this empty room began to build to such a degree that they were jumping at their shadows so much they wanted nothing to do with touching anything, let alone cutting the poor woman down.

Even opening doors was becoming a problem. So much so I openly declared and solemnly swore that no door was trapped, nor would any door in the future ever be trapped, that they could open them without fear.

Then choosing which corridor to go down become a heated debate.

I was pulling my hair out and I'm bald.

To cut what is already a long story short, at the end of a very brutal encounter with two groups of ghouls in a collapsing crossroad of passages, followed by the exploration of the three rooms they patrolled, which were now effectively 'empty rooms', though one contained a sun shaped necrotic battery on the floor, another a scrying pond that gave flashes of other rooms in the dungeon, and another a ghostly image of Loudwater, the town the prisoners had been kidnapped from, surrounded by bloodstained hand prints, and another prisoner, one of my players commented that she couldnt wait to see sky again and leave the dungeon behind. Hehehe, and here was me cutting things left right and centre to shorten the dungeon.

They did manage to avoid the other 3 encounters on this level and go straight to the 'Boss Encounter', which comprised of 5 Boneshard Skeletons, the Mummy of the Cult's leader whom they had defeated when they were trapped in time and space, but not killed, and one of the Demoness' Hand Maidens (Vampire Muse); Awesomely brutal fight they only just managed beat, death had never been nearer with 3 PCs down and dying at the end of the fight. Things could have been fatal if the Vampire was able to dominate the Barbarian on her last attack, but which failed, before he hacked her down.

So as I prepared for the next session, contemplating my players desire to be done with the dungeon, and thinking of all the things left unresolved down there yet, loose ends and still real threats, I decided to make the last three encounters and the whole of the second level into a single skill challenge in itself.

And I guess this is where it becomes very relevant to me the idea of those 'empty rooms'.

The basic premise was this:
The were-creatures were aware of the Handmaiden's defeat and fearing for their own lives, began to conjure demonic hunters (one of the 3 remaining encounters) to deal with the PCs.
If the PCs failed the challenge the demons would be conjured and they would have to face that encounter (no small deal considering how beat up they were).

Depending on the amount of success achieved before failing the Were would join the fight (second remaining encounter) sooner or later; 1 minute for each success, meaning they could quite likely be able to benefit even from a short rest if they had to deal with the demons (if they achieved at least 5 or 6/8 successes before 3 failures.

Also at each individual fail during the challenge there was a possibilty they would come across the Horde's Battle Leader (third and final remaining encounter), Sinruth, who was out searching for them throught both levels of the dungeon.

The 'empty rooms' would become the Key Points to resolving the challenge.

As the PCs explored and came across the 4 columns within which shadows began to take body and shape (the demons being conjured by the Were from the chapel just beyond this room) they decided it was time to leave and go and rest somewhere, demons be damned.

Which is when they felt the first pulse of the Mummy's Curse (A damaging psychic attack of pure hatred that made the walls and floor start to blur, and make orientation difficult, slowing those beneath its effect, leaving them Unconcious after first failed save). This attack would occur every 4 rounds until the body of the mummy was returned to its tomb and the lid shut. Which achieved 1 success for the challenge.
Of course noone was telling them that. And noone was going to stand around investigating the source of this attack.

As they began to run helter skelter to leave the dungeon a crow flew in and landed on one of their shoulders, its croaks and squawks barely understood, they received the message that a gift awaited for them in the Crow Kings Altar (an altar they had cleansed on Lvl 1 and where they received a geas from the Crow, the God of Death's messenger, to destroy the Undead army in the lower levels.

I rolled out the game mat with the entire second level sketched out (the parts they had explored), initiative was rolled and they began to race towards the stairway to the first level. They got lost and the elf (fastest character) ran into the scrying pool room where 3 wererats had been sent to see where the PCs were.

What was once an 'empty room' now become part of the challenge. Each wererat could take two hits. They would attack on their turns but automatically flee (to alert Sinruth) if missed 3 times.
PCs attacks vs Hard DC. So 6 success (hits) needed to take down the Rats before three fails; a mini challenge within the challenge.

Between the Elf Ranger and the Barbarian shouting Bloody Murder they took them down quickly and recieved their first success (alerting them that they were in fact in a skill challenge); They could have used the pool to scry and keep track of Sinruth's movements (gaining a bonus to avoid him) but it didnt occur to them to use it in any way.

They raced on to the Altar where they received the gift of a surgeless heal and 8 silver crows feathers, especially weighted to throw. These were designed to be quite powerful consumable weapons to quickly even the odds in case of battle, making survival a possibility in their battered state (they used them to interact with the challenges faced in the empty rooms).

Here I gave them the information they could have gathered themselves back where the Mummy lay (but noone wanted to know what was going on they wanted to get out, full stop). They had to disrupt all of the points of evil in the bottom level, which basically meant they had to interact with all those 'empty rooms full of signs of dark rituals and sacrifices in plausible ways to succeed on the challenge. This would lead to disrupting the Demon Ritual, the complete surrender of the Were congregation and Sinruth abandoning the dungeon for fear of losing his own life.

Failure could be literally be fatal, getting into a fight they were too battered to face, or even three fights, possibly simultaneously if thing went really bottoms up. But success would be complete, the dungeon resolved top to bottom in one long running skill challenge over the entire session as they interacted with the puzzles of the 'empty rooms' and overcame their dark power.

Each point disrupted meaning a success on the challenge. Movement was very important because the Mummy's Curse was constantly damaging them, putting a time pressure on things. So boring passage ways took on important dimensions, as it was distance vitally important to cover as soon as possible. A lot of running was involved.

That was the last session we had, and it went brilliantly. The dungeon is done for. They've opened the portal out of there, which leads them a step closer to the Demoness. I was able to push them right to the edge. Exploration, passageways, empty rooms all took on importance, because I made them meaningful. I guess like everyone, I'm learning a lot as I go along, but more and more I'm liking the idea of the encounter area (discussed by one of the 4e designers a few months back) as opposed to encounter after encounter. And I think these encounter areas need passageways, and empty, but interesting or meaningful rooms. And I think skill challenges can play a big part in making these areas awesome.

If you made it to the end of this post: Thanks! And congratulations on your formidable concentration and mentall fortitude. Hopefully it was interesting enough to have be worth reading :)
 

Mengu

First Post
I don't have corridors either.

I have pretty much reduced all maps down to encounter areas. Okay so the encounter area could contain hallways, but these are not meant to "connect" areas, they are meant as part of the scenery/terrain for the encounter.

I don't have maps of mansions, I don't have maps of cavern complexes, or cities, unless they themselves are the encounter area (encounter doesn't necessarily mean combat encounter in this context). If there is a skill challenge bouncing around a town gathering information, and uncovering some secret about the layout of the town, like cultist cells located in the shape of a pentagram, then sure, I'll have a map. But if it doesn't serve a purpose, I find that verbal descriptions not only suffice, but stimulate the player's imagination more than some squiggly lines on a paper. As a matter of fact, if you have the map of a massive dungeon, you can't exactly get lost or turn a wrong corner. Keeping things more nebulous in the mapping area, creates a lot more opportunities.

So I'm certainly with the new school. I don't want to see empty rooms, or a room drawn on a map with 1 orc. I can just as easily describe the room, and the orc inhabitant. The PC's can choose whether they want to befriend the orc, intimidate the orc, or kill the orc. The new school approach doesn't remove the incident of "one room one orc" from our vocabulary. We just remove it from the set of combat encounters. Where necessary, it's still an encounter, just not one where we need a combat map or initiative to deal with the situation.

I sometimes even skip over combat encounters with verbal descriptions, if there is nothing interesting going on. So they've fought every kind of minotaur and demon in the area. They run into a situation where they hear about a group of dwarves cornered by the minotaurs and demons. They rush to help. I run a mini skill challenge to determine if they pick the best way, if they can use stealth and terrain to their advantage. Then I tell them, you kill the demons, bully the minotaurs to surrender and rescue the dwarves. Mission accomplished. No initiative rolled. Since they had fought many similar encounters earlier, the important part was the rescue itself, and gaining the gratitude of the dwarves.

I'm totally on board with, getting to the important and fun stuff. This doesn't necessarily mean "combat".
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
If you made it to the end of this post: Thanks! And congratulations on your formidable concentration and mentall fortitude. Hopefully it was interesting enough to have be worth reading :)
I did make it to the end of this wall of text, and I tried to give you XP for it, but was informed after an unusually long delay that I had already done so too recently.

Still, excellent post.
 

wcpfish

First Post
Good stuff! [MENTION=65726]Mengu[/MENTION] - I am with ya. I like the idea of even not repeating simple combats. Consider that yoinked!

A bit more detail on how we handle some encounters. I actually have two "encounter areas" set up in our gaming area. I use a smaller, simple grid for "build-up"/lesser" encounters and then a separate table for bigger/more important set pieces. It's really fun to hear the players say "uh-oh we're headed to the big table." There are some VERY meta-gamey and video-gamey things that we, as a group, do at the D&D table but we're all on board with it so it works for us! Again, I will never say our way is the only way or the best way...just what makes us happy :D

I just hope the discussion continues , as I'm quite curious to hear other stories...corridors or no? how much does this affect pacing? and are there other ways to convey the "feel" of a dungeon setting?

Happy Gaming,
William C. Pfaff
President of Escape Velocity Gaming
 

Aspeon

First Post
That's another way that Essentials might be going back to old-school: I'm planning on running Cairn of the Winter King (the mod in the Monster Vault), and it's got corridors and rooms without encounters. There's four pages just describing each of the rooms in the dungeon, and for the ones that don't have a fight in them, "This room was used for X, here's an interesting detail, if the party searches it they find Y" is all you need.

Exploration is fun, but so is a series of high-caliber, set-piece fights. 4E sort of defaults to the second, but the first works too.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Well, I prefer my dungeons to be small and the majority of an adventure to happen in wilderness areas. This often makes it unnecessary to include a lot of corridors or empty rooms in the dungeons that are really not much more than multi-room lairs. The wilderness is what assumes the role of empty rooms and corridors then.

But assuming I _am_ creating a somewhat larger dungeon, I agree that _random_ empty rooms are not something I need or want to see these days. What I do want to see, though, are rooms that provide clues or help to support the mood I'm trying to create.

I also want to see a sufficient number of alternative paths through a dungeon. Nothing is worse than a dungeon layout that is nothing but a single chain of rooms. As long as you don't end up creating an actual maze (which is always just boring to navigate), you're doing fine. As a bonus, make those paths distinctive, i.e. it's not just a choice of left or right, but a choice of following the footsteps of a Large humanoid or the smell of acid.

These things also serve the purpose of varying the pacing in an adventure. Hence I would _never_ reduce them to a block of read-aloud text. These should be areas that require player interaction and often skill checks.

I also prefer dynamic environments, even if they're in reality just 'scripted':
E.g. that empty room you passed on your way to the treasure chamber doesn't have to be empty on your way back...

This is something I always spend some time on between sessions:
I think about the things the adventurers have done, where they went, whom they fought, and then I make adjustments that reflect the consequences of their actions. Even very small changes go a long way, here:
E.g. if they return to their 'safe room' for another rest, let them make a perception check to notice that someone else has been in the room in the meantime. Even if they fail the check they will be wondering what's going on and may well decide to go elsewhere.

If they're acting dumb, I also have no qualms about throwing combined encounters at them as the inhabitants of the dungeon try to flush them out of their home.

4e is such a slick ruleset and it's so easy to adjust monster stats and encounter composition on very short notice that it would be a real shame to create nothing but railroads.

I also never use 'random' encounters, btw. Instead I create a bunch of 'planned' encounters before sessions and place them wherever it makes sense depending on the PCs actions. I also don't mind if some of these encounters never see play. Sometimes I also modify them a bit and use them much later in a different adventure.

Finally, I'm a fan of the approach of using a fixed monster 'budget' to draw from to mix and match encounters of varying difficulty.

So, yes, my dungeon has corridors!
 

The Monster

Explorer
For some time now, I've been viewing D&D (RPGs in general) using perspectives like movies, TV, metting facilitation, and so on - not in order to get all artsy-fartsy, but to look at the game sesison in terms of time spent and participation. Thus, it's been a while since my dungeon had corridors and empty rooms - or, really, since I used dungeons much at all.

The old-school dungeon crawl, with carefully plotted-out corridors, empty rooms, carefully calculating resources and searching for traps and lighting and so on, is fun enough for some of us, but it has a couple problems for most folks: 1) it's very slow paced - even with good communication, a lot of time is spent describing picayune details about wall length and angles and so on; 2) most of the time is spent with one or two players (i.e., the rogue/s), while the rest sit around waiting for something to happen; it also (3) easily devolves into a conest of wits between GM and players - which, again, is cool if that's what you all want, but for many (I think most) of us, the goal is entertainment and action, rather than outwitting each other in open (if directed) conversation (that last is hardly unique to dungeon-crawl tradition, but it's easy for it to go that way).

Screen entertainment and effective team meetings focus heavily on keeping as many people actively involved as possible - yes, there are specific audiences and expectations for each event, but any time you have only one or two people in the room involved with the action, your event is moribund. (This is one of the things I think 4e does very well - with all the interrupts and changing conditions and situations, there's a lot to grab your attention even when it's not your turn.) Part of involving everyone is to keep the action rolling, move the plot along, as it were, working toward the climax and resolution with every moment. TV shows generally have about 20 or 40 minutes to introduce, elaborate, and resolve a conflict, although some of that can be carried between episodes; movies have as much as three hours in a single sitting to do this, so they can get a little more crafty. Game sessions typically have about a movie-length of time (if you factor in 'lost' time for side chatter, rules discussions, bookkee[ing, and so on, you probably get about three hours of real play time in most sessions), with the advantage that, in a regular campaign, a lot of information and energy can be carried from one seeion to the next (one of the key factors separating RPGs from boardgames).

Even with movie-length time slots, and continuing episodes, there's still no reason to waste time: people are there for the entertainment value, and pretty much nobody really gets much from watching other people play for long. And even dramatic activity, if it doesn't contribute to the plot, atmosphere, or other development, soon becomes boring (there are very different thresholds for this, of course - films which are very thin on plot but heavy on action have a good enough fan base that they keep making money, but top-notch movies, especially war movies, are those which have well-made plot and character.). Frankly, I consider such classic tropes as wandering monsters, detailed dungeon corridors, and empty rooms to be largely a waste of time.

The point of an RPG is to have fun, like any other game, and, really, any form of entertainment. Dead time in an RPG is no less dreadful and boring than dad time in a movie or video game. When I run a game, one of my goals is to minimize dead time (and when I play, as far as that goes, but I have much less influence as a player than as a GM). As I see it, each and every scene in the game should serve a purpose: advance the plot, build atmosphere, develop character, something. And while empty rooms and wandering monsters can occasionally serve a dramatic purpose, they must be brought in with a dramatic purpose in mind, not just because that's they way it was done before. If a scene or a prop - combat encounter, skill challenge, NPC interaction, map, model, mini, whatever - doesn't serve to advance the action, it shouldn't be there; furthermore, if an encounter or event doesn't draw the players into the action, it should probably either be thrown out or redesigned.

As a caveat, all this may come across as very high-minded and demanding. Perfection always is ;) I wish I could always practice what I preach! The idea is, everything can and should be a tool for the GM; and the goal is to entertain and be entertained, and to allow the players to enter the game to the fullest. Empty rooms and random monsters, in my opinion, are pretty poor tools to accomplish that, as a general thing. When movies and TV shows use such things, they have a reason to put them in; and they don't spend more time on them than needed to serve the overall experience. That's where these things fit in to a D&D game, in my opinion - not as filler between interesting stuff.
 

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