My fighter always gets battered-am I "normal"?

[TimSmith]

Sounds like an adolescent angst post, but I am playing my first 3.5 fighter in RttToEE. By my old 1st ed perceptions he is rock hard with AC 29 and 145hp, but after almost EVERY battle he is in dire need of healing. The monsters hit him almost without fail, and since 3rd ed monsters do more damage, his 145hp quickly drop. Is this just the way 3rd ed is or could I do something to make those hp last longer?

For your information, I am part of a 3 man party, playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. (The others are a wizard and a cleric). We are about half way up the tower where the Doomdreamers are supposed to live, if you know the adventure. My character is a Dwarf Rogue1/Fighter8/Defender3. AC29, 145hp. Mithral Full Plate +2, Animated Tower shield +1, Waraxe +1, girdle of giant strength +4, cloak of resist+1, brooch of shielding, 3 potions cure light wounds, mace+1, composite bow (+4 str), about 480gp in loose change and that's the lot. My adjusted str is 24, dex 15. Feats are wpn focus/specialisation, dodge, combat expertise, power attack, cleave, great cleave, endurance, toughness, improved critical. The wizard regularly puts a stoneskin on me (thank Moraddin!) so I get 10 point damage reduction. I don't give away attacks of opportunity if I can help it (eg let the monsters come to me and then 5 ft step in to full attack them).

I use my axe 2 handed, usually with a 5 point or 3 point power attack, so I dish out a lot of damage, but I don't usually use expertise as I then tend not to hit the foes very well. I have been toying with the idea of trialling a "full 5 point expertise all the time" to see if this can significantly reduce the blows I take, but wonder if this will make me useless in attack? Before I try this, any other advice from seasoned fighter types out there?

 

[Grogtar]

Well a few things from my experiece.

First, fighters dont have high AC to prevent monsters from hitting them. They have a high AC to prevent monsters from large power attacks and from hitting them on attack 2 or 3. Your attack bonus is probably in the high teens or low twenty-somthings, imagine what you can do to a soft target. A squishy target will not survive your full attack. Neither will that same squishy (your mage) survive the full attack routine of a Red Dragon. Thats what you are for.

Second - I would work on getting an item of +Con, I did not see one on you. My very similar Fighter type swore by his Amulet of Health +4

Finally, remember if you have very low HP at the end of a fight it usally just means you did your job well. There are better classes out there for raw damage output - as a fighter one of the things that you do best is survive. Sometimes its not about killing things, its about not dieing while the heavy artillery is aimed.

Hope I was of some help.

 

[Pbartender]

I am part of a 3 man party, playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

That's your entire problem right there.

My gaming group played the RttToEE for 8 months (making it about 1/3rd of the way through the adventure) before giving up. In all that time, the average level of our party of five stayed the same, due to character deaths (losing a level each time). I played the party wizard and was lucky enough to be the only player whose character hadn't died at least once... More because the party fighters were good at being body guards than anything else.

If you've only got 3 players, and you're all still alive in that adventure, I'd say you guys are doing pretty good... RttToEE is a meatgrinder.

 

[Bront]

I think you may need to stop the power attack and start using Combat Expertise. Spells like Endurance should help you a lot, so will stoneskin or barkskin. You might want to look into moving to Adamantine Plate for the DR as well.

Enlarge is an extremely usefull enchantment you can use to increase your damage by quite a bit (+2 str, and a size jump in damage, plus reach) even for a higher level fighter.

Keep in mind, that in a party of 3, there are only so many targets, so you'll likely be a bit more battered than in your normal party of 4-6.

 

[Shellman]

Sounds like an adolescent angst post, but I am playing my first 3.5 fighter in RttToEE. By my old 1st ed perceptions he is rock hard with AC 29 and 145hp, but after almost EVERY battle he is in dire need of healing. The monsters hit him almost without fail, and since 3rd ed monsters do more damage, his 145hp quickly drop. Is this just the way 3rd ed is or could I do something to make those hp last longer?

For your information, I am part of a 3 man party, playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. (The others are a wizard and a cleric). We are about half way up the tower where the Doomdreamers are supposed to live, if you know the adventure. My character is a Dwarf Rogue1/Fighter8/Defender3. AC29, 145hp. Mithral Full Plate +2, Animated Tower shield +1, Waraxe +1, girdle of giant strength +4, cloak of resist+1, brooch of shielding, 3 potions cure light wounds, mace+1, composite bow (+4 str), about 480gp in loose change and that's the lot. My adjusted str is 24, dex 15. Feats are wpn focus/specialisation, dodge, combat expertise, power attack, cleave, great cleave, endurance, toughness, improved critical. The wizard regularly puts a stoneskin on me (thank Moraddin!) so I get 10 point damage reduction. I don't give away attacks of opportunity if I can help it (eg let the monsters come to me and then 5 ft step in to full attack them).

I use my axe 2 handed, usually with a 5 point or 3 point power attack, so I dish out a lot of damage, but I don't usually use expertise as I then tend not to hit the foes very well. I have been toying with the idea of trialling a "full 5 point expertise all the time" to see if this can significantly reduce the blows I take, but wonder if this will make me useless in attack? Before I try this, any other advice from seasoned fighter types out there?

Consider revising your feat from Toughness (+3 hp) to Improved Toughness (+1 hp per hd, and it is retro) if your DM will allow you to change it. Improved Toughness gives a much greater bonus over the long haul compared to one feat for 3 hp.

Also, get an amulet of Health to bump up your con1

 

[TimSmith]

Well a few things from my experiece.

First, fighters dont have high AC to prevent monsters from hitting them. They have a high AC to prevent monsters from large power attacks and from hitting them on attack 2 or 3.

Finally, remember if you have very low HP at the end of a fight it usally just means you did your job well. There are better classes out there for raw damage output - as a fighter one of the things that you do best is survive. Sometimes its not about killing things, its about not dieing while the heavy artillery is aimed.

Well, that would make sense- I have noticed that the mage can really smash the opposition's hit points in short order and I was thinking that that ought to be my job as a fighter. But, the way you describe it is more like it is in reality- I soak up the damage, dish out reasonable damage (sometimes spectacular if I hit multiple times or a crit-drool) but don't hit often enough to really take down the big monsters. That's fine- I just need to realise that's the way it ought to be. I was just a bit worried about constantly draining the cleric's healing all the time. It seems to be that the wizard slaughters things, I soak up the damage and finish them off, and the cleric heals me. Rinse and repeat!

What you said about the secondary monster attacks seems to be right as regards medium monsters. This session we took out 2 vrocks and I hardly took any direct damage at all thanks to stoneskin and actually getting missed by the secondary attacks. The half dragon tyrannosaurs however, managed to whack me even with their secondary attacks.

 

[TimSmith]

That's your entire problem right there.

My gaming group played the RttToEE for 8 months (making it about 1/3rd of the way through the adventure) before giving up. In all that time, the average level of our party of five stayed the same, due to character deaths (losing a level each time). I played the party wizard and was lucky enough to be the only player whose character hadn't died at least once... More because the party fighters were good at being body guards than anything else.

If you've only got 3 players, and you're all still alive in that adventure, I'd say you guys are doing pretty good... RttToEE is a meatgrinder.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I think we would have had a couple of deaths if we weren't using the Action Points variant however. (I ought to have been "destructed" (sic) by Hedrack if it wasn't for getting a reroll- funny how with a +13 fortitude save, Sod's
Law says you will still fail that crucial save or die!).

 

[TimSmith]

I think you may need to stop the power attack and start using Combat Expertise. Spells like Endurance should help you a lot, so will stoneskin or barkskin. You might want to look into moving to Adamantine Plate for the DR as well.

Enlarge is an extremely usefull enchantment you can use to increase your damage by quite a bit (+2 str, and a size jump in damage, plus reach) even for a higher level fighter.

Keep in mind, that in a party of 3, there are only so many targets, so you'll likely be a bit more battered than in your normal party of 4-6.

I think I will try this expertise rather than power attack strategy next session or 2. If I try it consistently I will at least get an idea what effect it is having. If my damage is not as important as the mage, maybe its less important to hit well and more important to stay standing for longer!

Stoneskin is something we already use (otherwise I WOULD be dead-several times) and it doesn't stack with adamantine armour I believe-plus I have the mithral so I can sleep in my armour without penalty using the endurance feat, as the DM like to ambush us at night the git!

The wizard does cast enlarge on me quite often, as you suggest, although of course it makes me slightly MORE likely to be hit!

As you say, the smaller party is asking for more damage per character. We are using Action Points to try to offset this a bit.

 

[TimSmith]

Consider revising your feat from Toughness (+3 hp) to Improved Toughness (+1 hp per hd, and it is retro) if your DM will allow you to change it. Improved Toughness gives a much greater bonus over the long haul compared to one feat for 3 hp.

Also, get an amulet of Health to bump up your con1

I had to take Toughness for the Defender class plus I don't think the DM is using the extra books. If and when I get more cash I will consider the amulet, but I wonder if amulet of natural armour might not be a more efficient spend?

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Been my experience too - higher level fighters have AC to stop power attacks and the 2nd+ attacks from stuff. IME found party co-operation is required to get things better than that.

IMO, a strong form of defense is a miss chance of some sort. A displacement from the wizard before a major fight will do you a world of good - items can be had for this, but they're very expensive... Some creatures can see through it, but many cannot. Greater Invisibility is great - and a lot cheaper to cast than stoneskin.

If you can assemble the required stuff, then a ring of blinking, ghost touch weapon and see invisible is extremely effective. Even provides defense against quite a lot of magic. Also stacks with the illusion based miss chances...

You might already do this - But having a plot with your two spellcasters might help a lot. There's plenty of buffing they can help you out with? Just off the top of my head, a magic vestment on your animated shield is a +2/+3 to your AC. You have no deflection bonuses - so Protection from Evil would be great, Shield of faith would be more AC but no save bonus - both just a 1st level slot?

And finally, timely in combat Heal spells is the difference between a healthy happy bodyguard and a couple of spellcasters getting pulped by monsters.