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Message: <blockquote data-quote="smathis" data-source="post: 4159304" data-attributes="member: 56465">Hi Derren:For the sake of not getting mired in the subjective vs. objective, analogy vs. not, yadda yadda that could seriously just bog us down into semantics. Let's assume, for the sake of getting on with the matter, that you're right about all the similarities between MMOs and D&D 4e.But let's take a look at some these...Fighter (actually 'Fighting Man') has been around since the '70s. As far as roles, Wizard, Thief, Cleric and Fighter go way back as well. The Defender, Striker, Leader and Controller are the exact same roles with different terminology. These guys have all been doing the same schtick in combat since OD&D.Similarity to WoW? Possibly. But how does that not diminish all the editions of D&D that preceded WoW? Ever play AD&D first edition? Or the Red Box D&D? Previous point stands.Mmm. Rings. I agree that the designers were perhaps on a bit too much medication when they failed to think this one through. But were there ever any TRPGs that preceded WoW that required a certain level to use? Because I can't think of any off the top of my head, I'll just give you this one. Note I'm just ignoring the wealth/level thing from 3e. Primarily because we're operating on the assumption that 4e is like WoW and RPGs that preceded WoW were not.Kind of silly, but I want to give the most leniency I can to avoid prolonging this.Pretty much every Red Box game ever played right there.That's how Clerics and Magic-Users have operated for over 20 years. The only difference in 4e is that the timers are now "at-will/per-encounter/per-day" and non-magic slinging classes have access to similar abilities. Previously, D&D Clerics/Magic-Users either had enough spell slots to essentially make their "powers" at-will, per-encounter or per-day. The only difference is that 4e just simplified the bookkeeping.Bwahahahahaha.Again, that's pretty much every D&D game ever played in Greyhawk.Yup. OD&D too. We didn't get Skills until the tail-end of 2e. Before that, you either did a roll-under-stat (a generally understood House Rule) or the DM just winged it. Pretty much all abilities in older versions of D&D were applicable to combat and not much else -- with the exception of Thief abilities and some general utility spells.If you think that's enough to verify that 4e == WoW, then I'm willing to give it to you.Mmm. This one's really hard to just assume. But, hey, it's what I signed up for so fair enough. Red box treated NPCs mostly as monsters. Bandits weren't built like NPCs in 3e. Neither were Acolytes (NPC Clerics). But you might, say, create a character as a villain. But there was no need to if you didn't want to.But they all used the same combat rules.So, okay. I'll give ya this one. But I'm coming away feelin' like ya owe me one after this.Outside of the subscription rate (if you don't count magazines like Dragon) the TRPG business has ALWAYS had splatbooks.As I see it WoW and MMOs borrowed MUCH more from older versions of D&D than 4e borrowed from MMOs. Nearly all of the points you mentioned existed in D&D prior to 3e and prior to MMOs.And that's assuming that everything you said about MMOs and 4e is 100% true.Which was fairly generous, IMO.But going back to that one "gimme" I wanted for the PCs != NPCs earlier...This is hard to believe given that Ari mentioned he was sliding across the floor and kicking a table out from under two opponents in his first session. If anything, 4e is less restrictive due to the "rules != physics" aspect. Based on everything I've read from actual playtests, it sounds like the Attribute vs. Defense thing is pretty flexible to do whatever the players want.As an example, try what Ari did in 3e -- have a PC slide across the floor and kick a table out from under two opponents. Yeah, not so much. By those qualifications, 3e is more like WoW than 4e. And if the reason to not play 4e is because it is too much like WoW. Then it would seem to me that you have no reason not to switch.</blockquote>

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