D&D 4E My First 4E Game: Disappointing. Yours? (UPDATED with player feedback)

[CleverNickName]

I ran my first 4E game last night, and it was...well, there's no easy way to say this.

It was lousy.

Now before the supporters of the new edition rise up with their blowtorches and chainsaws, let me say that there were outside circumstances that led to this lack of fun, and that most of these circumstances had nothing to do with the 4E rules system at all. Seriously, this could have happened to any game...even the best game of all time (Monopoly.)

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I had been anxious to give 4E a shot ever since the PHB Lite was compiled, just to see what all the hype was about. Well, when a previously-scheduled gaming session fell through because of illness (the flu is going around the office,) it seemed like a good opportunity. I was able to persuade the three who were healthy enough to attend to try out the 4E rules with me.

(This is my local gaming group, not my usual 3.5E group that plays online. In case you were wondering.)

I downloaded the PHB Lite, printed it out, and gave it to the group to read up on. I also printed out the DDI sample characters and handed them out, so that we could start playing as soon as possible. While they did that, I re-familiarized myself with the Raiders of Oakhurst adventure that I had downloaded, printed, and read the night before. I broke out my battle mat, wet erase markers, and my minis, and set the table up. I ordered a couple of pizzas.

So after about an hour of prep, my players chose three of the pregen characters (the fighter, the ranger, and the wizard). I gave a brief intro, and away we went.

Two hours later, we were all playing Diablo II on my LAN. The character sheets, rules, and adventure were all forgotten, laid to rest beneath the empty pizza boxes and bread crumbs.

What went wrong?

Well for starters, it seems that I was the only gamer in the room who still had an open mind about 4E; everyone else was apprehensive at best. Even though everyone was having a good time and being civil with one another, a thick haze hung over the room like cigarette smoke. Every minor inconvenience or question was smugly exaggerated. Every missing rule was pointed out and debated. And everything (EVERYTHING) kept getting compared to WoW, explained in terms of WoW, or requested because it was possible in WoW. In short order, everyone just convinced themselves that my "new board game" wasn't worth their time.

That wasn't the only problem we were having. Now, I've been a DM since the 1980's, and I know how to keep a group focused on the story instead of the rules. But there were times when even I noticed that I was just pulling stuff out of my, um, ear. Some things just don't make sense when you try to explain them in a story; they only make sense from a metagame point of view. Thus, there were endless (endless!) comparisons to WoW. Nonetheless, I kept telling myself that it was just part of the learning curve, this stuff would work itself out once the novelty wore off. Only it didn't.

Here is the breakdown of our short-lived game. (Minor spoilers ahead, for those who have not yet played Raiders of Oakhurst.)

Spoiler

It was slow-going as the party made their way to the farm. Once there, they tangled with the kobolds outside the farmhouse. This was my first 4E battle, and it was understandably choppy with the piecemeal rules in the 4E Lite, but we managed. They destroyed the kobolds without mercy, and took minor damage...I had adjusted the number of kobolds to account for my party having only 3 members.

A discussion ensued about what it means to be "bloodied." A comparison was made to something in WoW, but since I'm not a WoW gamer, I didn't get it. I went on.

They found the tomb, got inside, and fought the three skeletons in C2. Nobody was all that impressed with the wizard; the ranger was clearly the star of the show. Anyway, the wizard was nearly slain, and there was some animated discussion on why skeletons...creatures without eyes or muscles...are able to get a bonus to attacks of opportunity. It was my turn to roll my eyes. We pressed on.

They spent an eternity trying to search the statue at C3. There was some debate on the difference between "searching" and "perceiving" the statue. Once they had tried sticking everything but their tongues into the statue's receptacle, and right before they began smashing the statue into pieces (all of this in spite of countless descriptions of the receptacle, and how it looks particularly like a locket), tension levels were starting to climb. So I gave them a wandering encounter to let them blow off some steam and get their heads back in the game (2 skeletons).

After the skeletons fell, one of my players pulled a laptop from his bookbag. This prompted another player to mention that his laptop was out in the car, and the third player said that he forgot his but could run and get it. I pondered the meaning of the word "forgot," since nobody had discussed laptops with me. Anyway, they got up to retrieve their computers, and when I started to complain, one of them told me, "relax, man, we'll still come back and finish your little board game."

MY little board game.

So, I decided to stop the game. I mean, I was cool about it: "Yeah, I guess this isn't working out," I chuckled. Because it was true...clearly these guys weren't having fun, and forcing them to keep playing wasn't going to help. Best to be a good sport about it...I joined them in a LAN game of Diablo II (the only game that everyone had installed and owned a license for.)

They went home; I got online and started arguing with someone in this forum about physics vs. fantasy...I guess I was in a bad mood. Sorry if I acted like a jerk.

So, yeah.

The anti-4E crowd will want to use this lackluster gaming experience like a banner, waving it around and making claims of how 4E is "too videogamey" or "too much like WoW," and how it is turning off even the veteran gamers. This is the death of D&D, only an idiot would spend money on a game they already own, there is no reason for it, 4E causes global warming and uneven tire wear, etc.

The pro-4E crowd will want to flame me for my presumed-inferior DM skills. Since 4E is shiney and new and perfect, the blame for my aborted gaming session clearly rests upon me alone. Or upon my friends, who clearly suck for not liking 4E. 4E is Teh Bst, and anyone who doesn't agree is poorly informed somehow. Whatever.

But here's my honest impression, from an undecided person's point of view.

Is 4E "videogamey" or "like WoW?" Yes, and to a noticeable degree. But whether or not this is going to be a problem depends on you and your group. If you want it to be an issue, it will be. My players certainly did, after all.

Is 4E really just a board game now? Of course not...but it is not "just" a roleplaying game anymore, either. Is that a problem? Probably not....it will be as big of an issue as you want to make of it.

So after my first 4E experience, my buttocks remain firmly on the fence, but I'm leaning toward Pathfinder. I could definitely tell that 4E is a whole new game, with a completely different mood and hotter, higher-action combat. It also felt very cold between battles, like everyone (DM included) was just sitting around waiting for the chance to start shooting at something again. I need a couple more tries before I can decide for sure if I like the new feel, but I would be lying if I said that this bad first experience didn't sour the milk for me a little.

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I know that I'm not the only one who has tested out the piecemeal 4E rules. I'd like to hear about your testing experiences also, if for no other reason than to cheer myself up.

Does anyone else have any war stories about running a pre-release 4E game? Did 4E shine victoriously over the competition, or did it trip over its shoelaces and fall on its own sword? Were there any casualties? Any foxhole conversions? Any memorable battles or golden moments of high-cinema quality? Or did it remind you of day-old plain oatmeal?

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EDIT (04/10/08): I got feedback from the three players, and thought I'd share.

Spoiler: Feedback

CleverNickName, I just want to ask you if you talked with the players after that session? I don't know if they're actual friends or just gaming acquaintances, but did speak to them about it afterwards, didn't you?

Well, sort of. I haven't spoken to them, but I've e-mailed and heard back from them. After the game, and after I had given myself a chance to cool down about it (you know, gotten some sleep, had a good breakfast, that sort of thing), I hammered out an e-mail and sent it BCC to the guys. It went something like this:

"So about last night. Diablo2 was awesome as always, but I was really in the mood for some tabletop gaming. I got the feeling that you weren't really getting into the game I had prepared, though. I'm still a bit of a newcomer to this gaming group, and I've only been DMing with you guys for three games now...I'd love to get some feedback.

And if you ever pull out your laptop at my game table again, I will CUT you."

(Okay, I really didn't include that last line. I typed it, but I backspaced over it before I clicked "send.")

The first guy (let's call him Lock) replied, "you were doing fine and it was an interesting adventure setup and all but it just started to feel old you know? it would have been fine i guess if we had used our own characters instead of some sample ones but i know that they might not have worked with the new game you wanted to try. maybe next time we can roll up our own characters using the new rules it might be more fun that way." (Sorry, but Lock is apparently allergic to capitalization.)

The second guy (Stock, we shall call him) wrote, "It wasn't you, man, I think it was just the new game you brought. I had worked all day on my research paper, and I didn't feel much like having to learn something ELSE when I was trying to relax lol. I just didn't want to have to think that much. It was just a lot easier to just turn on diablo and click some goblins to death. will we get back to our regular game next week? I really like the stormlord prestige class in complete divine, do you think I can build one?"

Barrel (the third guy) didn't reply until late last night. "Yeah, sorry about that. You are doign fine as a dm and everyone looks forward to the games, which is something that hasn't happened in more than a year. Our last dm wasn't nearly as much of a hard ass as you are about attacks of opportunity (j/k) but he was always late and never really put any time into his adventures either. I think we were all just bummed that we wouldn't be continuing the game we started a few weeks ago and the new game felt like cheap imitation. Totally not your fault. I have a question, can we use some of the feats in Complete Warrior?" (he goes on to ask about certain feats for his elf monk.)

So that's that. From what I can tell, they weren't personally offended by 4E on principle; they were just in the mood for something different. I don't know what that means for the 4E rules system as a whole, or its appeal to your average gaming group, but there it is.

 

[Cirex]

Uninterested players would ruin anything, so well, cheer up, next game will be better!

I can't think of many things being "bloodied" in WoW, maybe some boss encounters Enrage or a bonus to a rogue talent that was pulled off (20% extra damage against enemies with less than ~30%HP).

But yes, I know how annoying it can be when people start to compare everything to a videogame, another game, a movie, etc.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

Yeah, I was about to say, sounds like uninterested players decided to take your game out back and shoot it. I've had sessions go like that in any system you care to name, so it's not 4E-specific by any means.

 

[ThirdWizard]

It never fails. If you try to get someone into something they don't want to get into, it won't work. I have friends who the worst thing I can do to try to get them to enjoy something is to tell them they'll enjoy it.

Anyone who doesn't want to have fun will not have fun. It's no secret. They didn't want to play 4e. It's a sad truth, I guess, but its there. One of the worst things about 4e is that the debate, the back and forth discussion about whether it is going to be a good or bad system only dispositions people toward one side or the other. So, we huddle in our groups, and we decide before the fact and don't want to change our minds.

I don't want someone to play something they don't enjoy and I don't want someone to miss out on something they could. I guess I'm contributing just as much as the next guy. The more one side pushes, the more the other pushes back. I will take from your post a cautionary tale about how to approach my group from now on when opinions differ.

 

[Zil]

Well for starters, it seems that I was the only gamer in the room who still had an open mind about 4E; everyone else was apprehensive at best. Even though everyone was having a good time and being civil with one another, a thick haze hung over the room like cigarette smoke. Every minor inconvenience or question was smugly exaggerated. Every missing rule was pointed out and debated. And everything (EVERYTHING) kept getting compared to WoW, explained in terms of WoW, or requested because it was possible in WoW. In short order, everyone just convinced themselves that "Trav's new board game" wasn't worth their time.

I'm curious why the rest of your regular gaming group was feeling apprehensive in advance. What did they believe going in about 4E? I know that around our gaming table, it also is regarded with a mixture of disdain or apprehension even though I'm the only one who regularly reads up on the dribs and drabs that have been accumulating in the 4E lite collection. Only one person has ever shown any strong interest, but it turned out that what he really was interested in was the computerized gaming table and not the new edition itself.

Should I expect similar negative results if I tried to run a 4E lite game for a group of skeptics (myself included) just to see what it's like?

 

[Dm_from_Brazil]

The Power of expectations

Here is my take: Using the PHB_4E_Lite and the Experience characters, I DMed a version of the "Sunless Citadel" 3.0 adventure, to 6 players - that don´t even know EnWorld exists, and had no expectations (good or bad) about 4E.

Planning the adventure, as a DM was really different: a real breeze, quick and fun!. The players said that it felt as 3.5E - when you play with 5th Level characters, that is (what is interesting, because it´s the start of the "infamous sweet spot"), while they were playing with 1st level ones.

The greatest moment (to me) happened when the players used some "out of the box thinking", and broke a door to use it as a bridge over a chasm. That´s something I don´t see happening (thinking out of the box - and out of the rules) for quite some time: my players are so used to the "3E way of play" (the much maligned ´don´t move and full attack´, and so on) that playing a different system FREED them (ok, I concede that this is not a 4E advantage: any other RPG could have done this - but 4E really has a different "bag of tricks" than 3E, that is for real)

I am certaint that if they had as many a bad expectations as your players, it would (also) had ruined my game. As they had NO expectations, it rolled as a "brand new game".

I am certain also that too much good expectations can be a bad thing too, as (unlike all the WotC propaganda) IS NOT the second coming of the Bejesus - altough a game as good as 3.5E (and easier to DM, from my short experience).

A final note: I once had the weirdest of experiences with expectations. I was GMing a Mage:the Awakening game, and there was this player who said that was a Wicca.
Well, he past the entire gaming saying things like "you know, this is NOT the way magic works" and so on. His "Magic Simulation" expectations soured the game for everybody else.
And that is it...

 

[CleverNickName]

I'm curious why the rest of your regular gaming group was feeling apprehensive in advance. What did they believe going in about 4E? ... Should I expect similar negative results if I tried to run a 4E lite game for a group of skeptics (myself included) just to see what it's like?

It's hard to say, really. I mean, they knew we would be gaming...the original plan was to play D&D already (albeit 3.5E). When they were reading through the 4E Lite materials and looking over the character sheets they seemed quite excited about it, too. I overheard a lot of stuff like "oh cool, I can do that every round!" and "finally, no save throws!" and so on.

But then, it just fell flat. Three battles in, and everyone just got bored for no apparent reason. That has never happened before.

It kind of freaked me out.

 

[SSquirrel]

Uninterested players sabotage the game before it begins. Nothing to see here
I won't say a word about your DM skills man don't worry.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I tried it out several weeks ago with a group that had a mix of experienced players and several people who had never played before.

Three of the players, representing a spread across the experienced and unexperienced crowd, were WoW players.

It went wonderfully. Everyone had a fantastic time. The new rules lead to all sorts of creativity with tactics. And things went a lot smoother without grid, board, or minis than was my experience in 3.5e.

Two of the players - one utterly inexperienced and one extremely experienced - did make comparisons to WoW. Both play a lot of it.

The inexperienced player commented on WoW as a touchstone for helping her understand how to play.

The most experienced player commented on a lot of little parallels, none of them rules based, but in the end said - totally out of the blue - that he thought there weren't any more parallels than would have been present in any other edition of DnD. Thinking back, though, he might have said it in reaction to the first player.

My own take on the experience - as someone who doesn't play WoW but does play a lot of board and role-playing games - was that this felt like the best edition of DnD I'd ever DMed and the best edition of Feng Shui I'd ever played.

The experience has actually sort of ruined life for me as I'm dissatisfied with every I've got around me right now.

As a note - this felt - in terms of pacing and fun - nothing like Star Wars Saga. I know that mechanically they are pretty close, but the basic elements of play were fixed at extremely different levels and I find SWSaga very unsatisfying by comparison.

 

[Mostlyjoe]

It's all about the hard sale. In this case, it can be an easier one if you spend some prep time working over their concerns. It sounds like they had attitude A and you needed to get them to B before the game started. They were on the fence...and...The lack of skill system and advanced combat rules hurts this. One of my own issues with the 4E Lite. Honestly, I'm not going to run 4E until the first Adventure comes out because of Lite's poor performance as a true preview.