My First TPK

[Halivar]

My apologies. I didn't know the game was starting in prison. Sounds good to me.

 

[Doug McCrae]

My apologies. I didn't know the game was starting in prison. Sounds good to me.

Actually I was thinking of it as the start of a session, midway through a campaign.

That said, as a DM I do make a reasonable effort not to be a d-ck. If you or Numion were playing in my game and I knew you really didn't like auto-captures then I wouldn't have any auto-captures.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Would you accept the DM saying for example: "Last night your (male) dwarf fighter put on a pink fairy dress and tried to seduce captain of the guard in a tavern!"

It's not quite the same as that sounds like out-of-character behaviour. Otoh a PC could be captured against his wishes, even a PC that never surrenders under any circumstances, perhaps by sleep gas, nets, non-lethal damage and the like.

Like I say though if I knew you disliked having your PC captured, even in summary, I wouldn't do it.

 

[ZSutherland]

The sometimes unfortunate truth of the matter is that the game itself discourages players from surrender, especially the higher the level of the PC. A new character (say one made after a death) starts with gear appropriate to wealth-by-level, but a captured and looted character is crippled in many ways. This isn't to say that a clever DM and good players couldn't bounce back from such an ordeal, but death is a piddly obstacle in comparison to the lost ground of having to rebuild loot. Also, as Numion points out, the characters are the players only avenue of choice and effect on the game world. If they lose control of their characters, they're now effectively listening to a story instead of playing a game.

One of my long-time regular players would much rather lose his character, or even keep the character but lose all his wealth, than have to watch his charmed or dominated PC running around out of his control. It irks him like little else in the world.

 

[green slime]

Sadly, nowadays the news also hold a fair deal of stuff about imprisonments worse than death. But yes, in literature this usually isn't the case.

I think that the more important factor for players is the loss of control for his PC, which is understandable (IMO), since that's the only control the player has in the game to begin with.

I think, in part, it comes from a fear of being screwed over by the DM. Giving ample opportunities to escape via various skills (Use Rope, Escape Artist, Diplomacy, Bluff & Intimidate), all mean the character hasn't really lost that much control at all. Just the flavour of the conflict has changed.

 

[green slime]

The NPC was a known nice guy and they were framed for murder, shoot when they refused I kept hoping they'd go for an escape instead of duking it out. I can work with fugitives better than corpses.

Well, sometimes, you just have to laugh!

 

[green slime]

Because the -10 hit points isn't a large enough buffer zone.

At low level raise dead isn't an option.

Which should really cause a pause for thought, and encourage seeking alternative options to melee combat.

At high level you have all the save or die stuff flying about, and area effects that can kill a whole party from unlucky rolls so no one is around to raise the dead.

Indeed. I stated that as well in a previous post. Most often though, an entire healthy party will not be reduced to ashes through bad luck alone in a single round.

The possibility of bad luck exists, but is not a good excuse for poor tactics.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

Interesting. I haven't seen the usual suspects... The most common reason for a TPK is that by the time the PCs realize that they ought to run, trying to do so is almost certainly doomed to failure. (Usually they're in melee combat and the bad guys are at least as fast as they are.) Also, luck can be a huge factor. Given that running is probably not an option, most groups will have seen at least one or two fights that they should have lost being won by standing toe-to-toe with the bad guys and rolling well while they didn't. So they figure why not try? All they've got to lose is they're characters. Which, as has been said, is usually far less traumatic than surrendering. (Its a game. No matter what anyone says, we all play to 'win'. Getting your character captured means you've just 'lost'. Sure, getting him killed means the same thing, but at least that's the end of it... usually. )

 

[Slife]

DM's have done that to me and I have hated it every time. If all you want to do is tell the story without gaming it out, why even have a game? Just invite me over to listen to your story. At least then I don't have unreasonable expectations. [EDIT: I don't mean that sarcastically, either. No snark intended! I promise!]

I wasn't being entirely serious either.

It would be just as easy to sa: "I'd like to start the next adventure with you guys in jail. Tell me how you got there, and how many of Lord Nefarious' minions did you take down."

That way the players still have some control of the situation, and it doesn't seem ridiculously contrived that suddenly a bunch of dragons attacked.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Transporting prisoners is a pain for PCs. It adds complication that's quite repetitive and not very exciting. Repeatedly surrendering NPCs typically don't lead to a fun game. Just imagine going through a dungeon with 5 encounters versus orcs and having to take prisoners in each encounter. What do you do with them? It just gets complicated. If the PCs don't take prisoners because of these practical concerns, then they probably won't even think of it as something to consider doing themselves.

The occasional surrendering NPCs can be good. Especially in an urban environment when the PCs have the resources to handle it better. And, the more NPCs offer to surrender, the more PCs will think of it as an option. Usually, though, they would rather die than surrender.

Trying to escape, though, I'm all over that. Things want to live. Chasing something down might not be worth it. If the enemy runs away, going after them might put you in more danger, you will use up more resources in your efforts to get them than the benefits of catching them. This goes for both PCs and NPCs. Lots of PCs won't run, however. Running can be difficult. Enemies will get free attacks while you withdraw, and if it doesn't work they're worse off than they were. Lack of real chase rules in the game mean there's little codified in the way of running. Spells make the best use of fleeing. Plane shift and teleport are the main ways of escaping from battles, I've found.

If everyone can't get away, though, it can be better to let people die if you think it won't be a TPK. Leaving behind that much treasure can be far far worse than the cost of a raise dead, after all!