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D&D 5E My Guess - How 5e Will Work

Gansk

Explorer
Or is this just about having your playstyle validated? Seriously, what is wrong with you and what do you have against new and casual players?

I haven't played a game with explicit build points for about thirty years, and I played a handful of games then went back to D&D.

But how do I know that D&D didn't use build points in the design and just left it out of the books? It seems that 3rd and 4th editions, with their alternative class features and power selections would have needed a currency to gauge and understand whether they were broken or if they could work at a higher level.

My point is that I suspect that WotC is using this methodology to measure how modules will bolt on to the core rule set. That's it.
 

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Gansk

Explorer
I think their attempt to square the circle will be more of a relatively, coarse "gray box" design. It's not, say, BECMI/RC optional "skills" white box design, where the skills are kind of eyeballed by the designer for what you might want. If you want to vary them, you can see their guts hanging out, because they really don't do much. There are a handful of interactions with the rest of the system (e.g. magic), and those are carefully spelled out. But it is also not a "framework" black box design, where every possible skill is carefully spelled out, and are used like Lego blocks--you don't have to use them all, but you are limited to the set at hand, and don't really have the means to easily mess with the interior.

Instead, there is a core bit of logic running through the whole set of skills--tied to ability scores. That's not meant to be touched, but it isn't a "black box" but a scaffold that happens to have fully working contents due to the ability scores. Or, a "gray box". You leave the scaffolding alone, but you can replace or supplement the major working pieces with other options.

Are you talking about a page 42 approach where the player describes something cool and the DM adjudicates using ability checks as the base? You may be right, the DM is supposed to have a little more control of the game and maybe this is what they meant.

It seems a little nebulous to me, but I like tax forms in my game. :p
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
Are you talking about a page 42 approach where the player describes something cool and the DM adjudicates using ability checks as the base? You may be right, the DM is supposed to have a little more control of the game and maybe this is what they meant.

It seems a little nebulous to me, but I like tax forms in my game. :p

No, that is how this thing usually gets tried, but I think they are going for something both more ambitious and more robust. What will necessarily come out of this, unlike something like page 42, is that at least some of the options will have strange interactions, or even be mutually exclusive. In fact, part of the point is that you want there to be strange interactions, for different playstyles.


Something like page 42 could be one of those options on the list. So you might have a list something like this, for how to reconcile skill checks:
  • Ability score check, some fairly consistent and narrow guidelines on how the DM adjudicates.
  • Same thing, but more leeway in adjudication (e.g. use Int for Intimidate if it fits the niche occasion).
  • Add "Skills" which are bonuses to these rolls, engrained--note, often more powerful than the above straight.
  • Have adjudicated bonuses or such "skills"--now skills are only more powerful in that they "lock in" the bonus, but you can still work for it otherwise.
  • Let such bonuses stack--back to "skills" option being more powerful.
  • Have equipment bonuses, but don't let it stack with either adjudication or "skills" (kind of an odd option for a "diminishing returns, limited results" feel).
  • Have equipment bonuses, but they do stack--add an explicit resource dimension.
  • Ban all spells that do "skills" (by some kind of keyword).
  • Ban all spells that "replace skills" (e.g. traditional knock), but not ones that buff skills (some hypothetical spell that gives boost to an existing skill roll).
  • Go crazy with spells that "replace skills," but restrict them in all kinds of interesting ways too numerous to mention here.
  • Certain classes, themes, feats, etc. grant abilities, powers, etc. that "break the normal rules" of skills. The canonical example is a "reroll" ability.
  • Getting more afield, using what they have discussed with labeling different DCs and having "apprentice, journeyman, expert, master, etc." ranks, change what having the ability/skill means. The closest example is the 3E "track" feat changing the operation of "Wilderness Survival" skill, but they can get a lot more interesting than that, without necessarily cutting off options.
  • Ultra grit - some extended skill checks systematically risk hit points. This is an extension of the risks you run when climbing, forced marches, etc. as a mean to more naturally restrict "retries" and make every skill check matter. Getting down on the floor in the dirty dungeon and checking every inch for secret doors is probably about as risky as the skill climber going over that 15 foot high, rough stone wall--but the risk isn't zero.
  • Narrative reasons to not retry skills--something like the Burning Wheel "Let it Ride"--you get one chance, and that chance either works or it doesn't. On the bright side, if it works, the DM doesn't ask you for a new roll every few minutes. For a big climb, you roll once. You either climb it, fall, or back off in exhaustion.
  • (Default) - mechanics say that there is no reason why you can't retry skills, but we generally don't, because we don't want to use any of the options that make it a no-brainer.
There are many more. You note running through all of this is the idea that no matter how you mix and match these options, you make a d20 roll based on an ability, and apply the options. No matter which options you pick, there is a way for a person to climb a wall, and that way is spelled out--if only, "DM adjudicates, and this time decides that you make a Str or Dex check."

Now I don't know this, but from what I've observed in other systems, I'm going to bet that the one thing you will not be able to easily change is removing that ability score core framework. Oh, you could eventually replace it with something--a house-ruled, more involved direct skill system, for example--but it would be a lot of work. Because every character is going to have those ability scores and "ability to do certain skills" in the core, and that will interact with magic, combat, exploration, social, crafting--basically, the entire game.

And likewise, you can't make a new option that is incompatible with one of the existing ones, and then turn around and use it in the same game without getting funky results. (You could, of course, try--and might like the funky results.) Short of that, you can do anything that gives you results you like, including making up new options for the list.

I guess the best contrast with a point-buy framework, like GURPS, is that in the framework, they define how something like "climbing" works, and that is how it works. There may be a few optional rules to change the probabilities (for more or less grit, perhaps), but the fundamental nature of it doesn't change. You can push such system to let you do crazy stuff with incredible rolls, or add fumble results on the other end, but these tend to break down in practice. The systems aren't designed to handle those kind of extremes, but rather to make important distinctions between Felipe the Burglar with his Climb +7 and Mack the Soldier with his Climb +4. If Mack wants more climbing, he can buy some (at the expense of other thing he could have bought). Meanwhile, Felipe can go nuts and pump that Climb up where he practically can't fail for anything but outlandish things (at great expense).

Whereas, in the kind of system I think they are doing, the options aren't touching the numbers as much as they are changing what the numbers (and the labels) mean. It's a very different meaning of "skill" if equipment stacks with ability, instead of not stacking. And then later down in the list, I edged into what happens when you start redefining failure and success.
 

Gansk

Explorer
Crazy Jerome said:
Whereas, in the kind of system I think they are doing, the options aren't touching the numbers as much as they are changing what the numbers (and the labels) mean. It's a very different meaning of "skill" if equipment stacks with ability, instead of not stacking. And then later down in the list, I edged into what happens when you start redefining failure and success.

But do the mechanics work differently for each player? Let's say Mack is a 0e player and Felipe is a 4e player. Both characters have identical strength and are trying to climb a mountain. Felipe says he risks some hp to get a bonus, then they both roll identically on a d20. The DM says Felipe succeeds, Mack fails.

Mack says "What the hell?"

The DM says "You don't like skill rules, so you fail."

Mack says "I like them now. How do you do this risk thingy again?"

I don't think that is the situation you are describing, but I can't imagine how this would work unless Felipe had a power that allowed him to risk the hp. But what does Mack get in return? He is a fighter, so he doesn't want spells.
He is a 0e player, so he doesn't want powers, skills, or feats.

There are only a few basic things that Mack wants to make him a badass:
HP
AC
To Hit
Damage
Saves

So the question is: how much of those things equals a power?
Once you answer the question, haven't you just designed a points system?
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
But do the mechanics work differently for each player? Let's say Mack is a 0e player and Felipe is a 4e player. Both characters have identical strength and are trying to climb a mountain. Felipe says he risks some hp to get a bonus, then they both roll identically on a d20. The DM says Felipe succeeds, Mack fails.

Mack says "What the hell?"

The DM says "You don't like skill rules, so you fail."

Mack says "I like them now. How do you do this risk thingy again?"

Some options that are build replacements could exist in one character in the table, and not the other. Just like Jasper the Wizard has spell and Felipe doesn't; Felipe might have some special skill options while Mack elected to hit things harder. I don't think people will do much of this, except for the more obvious ones, but there is no reason why it wouldn't work.

On the other hand, the bits that redefine how the mechanics work would need to be consistent at the table. Those are going after a particular feel, and by definition are not balanced with each other. You probably wouldn't want to use the extreme grit options for Mack and the cosmic power options for Jasper. (For a certain subset of early, high level D&D, you might use extreme grit for melee and cosmic power for casters--which would end up having a lot of the same effects, but note that Jasper would be that much more hosed in melee.)

That doesn't mean there wouldn't be some stuff in the middle that could go either way. Some of it probably even has obvious issues, but if you don't care about those issues, you can blend it in however you want. And the group might choose options such that certain characters don't take much or even advantage of them, for a variety of reasons. This is also no different than prior versions, where, for example, a wizard isn't forced to pick the most effective spells, and you can hand out all your gold to orphans if you want.

The way I see it, people have mistaken two statements from WotC: 1) Support multiple playstyles with options, and 2) Support different character complexity with options ... as saying the options are all one and the same and equally flexible. That's ludicrous on its face, once you think about it for two minutes. Can Felipe play on the grid with miniatures while at the same time Mack merely describes what he is doing? No. Anything that affects the feel directly is affecting the feel for everyone at the table. The group has to come to some agreement on that for the Friday night game, even if the Saturday afternoon game with the same people uses a different agreement.
 

TimA

First Post
I love point buy systems, they absolutely ARE D&D and are almost certainly what the designers are using anyway.


However I expect what they will try to do is to take a little of 1e, a little of pathfinder, a little of 4e and blend it to together into a horrible mess that no one really likes and have to make lots of modules to add onto the basic crappy framework for anyone who likes any edition of D&D to be able to play a fun game with the same books.

I also believe they will absolutely fail to make a game where a 1e player and a 4e player can sit down and both enjoy the same session of gaming. I dont blame them for this though. Its probably simply impossible. The styles are too different.

That goal is kind of like asking your grandmother to put down her Canasta game and come play Call of Duty. Your just not going to make both people happy with the game and its foolish to try.

Trying to re-unite with the pathfinder people is a good goal. Trying to tie in the grognards who havent bought a D&D book since 1985 is just foolish. Let them play their game and leave them alone. They dont want what your selling, or what the rest of us want.
 

Gansk

Explorer
WotC Designers said:
This Legends & Lore article by Monte Cook says: "...this sounds so crazy that you probably won't believe it right now—we're designing the game so that not every player has to choose from the same set of options. Again, imagine a game where one player has a simple character sheet that has just a few things noted on it, and the player next to him has all sorts of skills, feats, and special abilities. And yet they can still play the game together and everything remains relatively balanced. Your 1E-loving friend can play in your 3E-style game and not have to deal with all the options he or she doesn't want or need. Or vice versa. It's all up to you to decide."
"To be clear, we're not talking about creating a bridge so that you can play 1E and 4E at the same time. Instead, we're allowing you to play a 1E-style game or a 4E-style game with the same rules. Also, players at the table can choose the style of character they want to play." - Monte Cook.
"So, the game is actually a matrix of these choices, with some made by the DM and some by the players, which will end up determining the feel of the overall game and might allow the group to "emulate" a prior edition." - Monte Cook.
"Players can pick their own style and complexity within a class. Think of it kind of like having a $10 budget to spend on lunch. Some people will go to a restaurant and buy a $10 lunch special. Someone else might spend that $10 by ordering a few different things off the menu, rather than a special. Someone else might take that $10 and go to the grocery store to buy all the ingredients for a recipe they like. The idea is to put everyone on the same scale, but then allow people to burrow into the level of detail they want. DMs have a similar process they can go through, adding optional rules to flesh out their campaigns. Those options can range from creating a unique list of races or classes for a setting, to adding in special rules for things like managing a kingdom or waging a war." - Mike Mearls.

Yeah, it is true that a grid module or domain management module needs the buy-in of all the players at the table, but it is also clear that players can use their own module individually and it will balance some other player's module at the same table.
 

Gansk

Explorer
I love point buy systems, they absolutely ARE D&D and are almost certainly what the designers are using anyway.


However I expect what they will try to do is to take a little of 1e, a little of pathfinder, a little of 4e and blend it to together into a horrible mess that no one really likes and have to make lots of modules to add onto the basic crappy framework for anyone who likes any edition of D&D to be able to play a fun game with the same books.

I also believe they will absolutely fail to make a game where a 1e player and a 4e player can sit down and both enjoy the same session of gaming. I dont blame them for this though. Its probably simply impossible. The styles are too different.

That goal is kind of like asking your grandmother to put down her Canasta game and come play Call of Duty. Your just not going to make both people happy with the game and its foolish to try.

Trying to re-unite with the pathfinder people is a good goal. Trying to tie in the grognards who havent bought a D&D book since 1985 is just foolish. Let them play their game and leave them alone. They dont want what your selling, or what the rest of us want.

You could definitely be right. Why would one player who takes five seconds to swing a sword want to wait around while another player takes five minutes to pull some ninja-style tricks?
 

TimA

First Post
You could definitely be right. Why would one player who takes five seconds to swing a sword want to wait around while another player takes five minutes to pull some ninja-style tricks?

Its not even just that. The old games had almost no customization at all unless you were a wizard. These are the people who complain that power attack is "too complicated and slows down a round". And a battlemat "destroys the immersion".

They're from another planet completely compared to what 3e and 4e players want from their games.
 

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