Wik
First Post
So, since the beginning, there has been "that" adventure - we all know about it, we've all done it. Here, for your amusement, is my breakdown of how "That" adventure has played out over the years (and through the editions):
BECMI (or, "old D&D")
The party makes their way to the dungeon. Before leaving the town, they hire a guide, who is a basic 0th level man-at-arms. The process consists of dropping a few silver pieces, and the guide is nameless.
When the group reaches the dungeon, they leave the guide behind. They enter the dungeon, and fight twenty goblins. The wizard takes out a few with a well-cast sleep spell, before retreating and doing little in the combat, while the fighter and cleric perform much more ably. The fight takes a while (both in game, and out of game) - ten combat rounds, which translates to ten minutes in the game. But then, the goblins are dead.
The PCs loot the room, and search the place for secret doors. They find a concealed door in one wall, which leads to a treasure chest. The rogue searches for traps, but doesn't find any. Of course, his find traps skill is only 25%, so it's no surprise when the poison arrow trap is triggered, and the rogue is pricked and poisoned. He fails his save, and dies.
Opening the chest, they find a +1 longsword, which the fighter quickly accepts.
The PCs take their loot, and head home.
1E
Along the way to the abandoned monastery complex, the PCs encouter a hermit, who suggests that he accompany the PCs on their journey. They decide it is best that he do so, since he obviously knows the way there.
The monastery is mostly ruined, with only a few pillars of support on the surface, but their guide manages to find an entrance to the extensive monastery dungeons. The PCs prepare to enter, before the guide says "I will go no further; I will wait for you here."
Inside the dungeon, the PCs encounter a group of twelve goblins, lead either by "an especially large goblin" (a subchief) or an orc. The wizard still wipes out a few goblins with his sleep spell, while the dwarven fighter stands in the middle of the room, mostly dodging the goblins' attacks. The rogue pulls off a few shots with his short bow.
The fight takes almost ten minutes of game time, and significantly longer in real time. The group quickly decides to search the room, but wish to do so quickly, since wandering monsters could occur at any moment. Luckily, the elf in their party makes finding the concealed door that "pops" out of the wall easy. When they find the chest, the rogue searches it for traps, and doesn't find the poison arrow trap.
The rogue is poisoned, and dies. However, the group has managed to find a fair amount of wealth, including a red ruby. "No problem" says the dwarf. "We can raise our rogue when we return to the town".
Also in the chest is a +1 longsword, which the fighter takes proudly.
On the way out, the Guide waits for them. He backstabs the fighter, and then sneers "Hand over the red ruby, Or I will kill you all!"
A fight ensues, and the wizard is almost killed. The party returns to the town, broken and battered, but wiser for the experience.
2nd Edition
The group learns of the old Church of Shelae, a once-proud monastery that housed loyal acolytes. However, the PCs learn that several decades ago, a fire burned out the monastery, and many of the acolytes were burned alive in the blaze. Some say their ghosts haunt the monastery, and it has long been avoided...
The group - a Halfling Rogue loyal to his home village, a Vengeful Dwarven Fighter witha hatred for Orcs, an Elven Wizard/Fighter, and a kindly human cleric of Thor - make their way towards the dungeon, along the way encountering a guide named Finnaeus Marduk. After a lengthy RP session, Finnaeus agrees to escort the PCs to the monastery.
Many encounters ensue, including a whole side-adventure involving bandits. Also, both the dwarf and halfling get to make use of their mountaineering proficiency to flank the bandit party, while the elf finds a use for his heraldry skill. Eventually, though, the PCs make their way to the monastery, and make a thorough examination of the surface. In fact, there is an RP encounter with the ghost of one of the former abbots, who warns of grave danger in the monastery dungeons. "Beware the red ruby!"
Once the group enters the dungeon, they come across a group of eight goblins, as well as two goblins that are "considerably larger" than the rest. This fight lasts several minutes in game time, and ends when the wizard is able to cast a sleep spell.
The group then searches for secret doors. They find a concealed door, that had originally been put in the dungeon as a means of allowing a former acolyte to maintain an affair with one of the monastery nuns - in fact, this affair is somehow responsible for the whole place burning down (not that the PCs ever learn this, of course).
The chest is searched for traps. While the rogue could have put points into Find/Remove traps, he was, after all, a village halfling, and so decided to put points into Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, and Listen, meaning his Trapfinding skill is rather poor. The poor rogue opens the chest, and is poisoned. He fails his saving throw, and should die.
However, the GM has a sub-plot involving the rogue in mind next session, and so instead handwaves the scenario, instead inflicting just enough damage to put the halfling at 1 hit points.
Inside the chest is a +1 longsword. Everyone in the group looks at it, and decides it's useless - the fighter is proficient in axes, the halfling is too small, and the elf is proficient in short swords ("It's more in character!"). Since the item cannot be sold, the PCs leave it in the chest. But, hey, at least they found the red ruby!
On the way out, they are ambushed by Finnaeus. The dwarf lands a few strong hits, and one that should kill the traitor easily. However, the GM arranges the situation so that Finnaeus instead escapes - with the red ruby - so that the PCs can chase him in the next adventure.
3rd Edition/3.5E
The PCs approach the dungeon, a burned-out monastery. they've done some basic information gathering (particularly the rogue, who uses his gather information skill wisely!), but are ready to loot this dungeon!
Along the way, they encounter Finnaeus, who tries to convince his way to accompany the party. However, the Cleric and Rogue both have ranks in Sense Motive, and Finnaeus rolls low on his bluff check. The PCs realize his game, and surprise him. A fight ensues, and the mage blasts Finnaeus with a few spells, while the dwarven fighter power attacks for all he's worth.
Finn is killed in three rounds - less than twenty seconds.
Their resources expended, the group rests for the night, entering the monastery in the morning.
They make their way into the dungeon, and encounter a few small fights before coming across four goblin warriors (and a goblin expert with a crossbow), led by a goblin barbarian with improved initiative that flies into a rage. The mage casts a sleep spell that takes out two goblins, while the fighter and rogue square off against the barbarian. The cleric was able to cast a single buff spell on himself before the fight, and takes out the remaining goblins.
Afterwards, they decide to search the room. Knowing that they haven't found enough treasure commesurate with the CRs they have faced, they know treasure must be nearby, so they take 20 on their search checks - after all, wandering monsters are so passe.
They find a secret door, slide it open, and find the chest. The Rogue takes 20 on his search check, and finds the trap.
He decides to disable the device, while the rest of the group waits thirty feet away. While he fails on his check, and a needle device pokes him, the rogue "only" takes 2d6 points of constitution damage. Harmed, but not dead, the PCs open the chest, and find a red ruby (did I say ruby? I meant to say "Jade", or some other cheaper gem... they are only 1st level!) as well as a +1 longsword.
The dwarf can use the longsword, sure, but he has weapon focus in the war axe, so they just pack it away. They'll use it if they face a monster with damage reduction, but as soon as they can get magical weapons, they'll sell the sword and buy a cloak of resistance or something (the rogue could use that saving throw bonus against poisons!)
They make their way home, happy with their catch.
***
So, what's my point with all this? Besides being a little snarky:
1) That the rules systems of D&D do influence the game experience. Or, to put it another way, all those fond memories we have of BECMI cannot be re-enacted in 3E. The rules just don't allow it.
2) As the editions have progressed, fights have become smaller, while Player powers have grown.
3) 3rd edition has probably made the game more enjoyable for rogues, without relying on DM fiat.
And I'm sure there's a bunch of other points.
For what it's worth, I've played similar scenarios to those described above, and while I'm overgeneralizing, the outcomes are more or less how I've outlined it. BECMI tends towards simplistic descriptions, 1E tends towards a fair amount of detail, but is still focused on the dungeon; 2e tends to go overboard on detail, looks down on the dungeon experience, and often depends on GM fiat, while 3e often perhaps spends too much time and focus on the abilities of monsters.
BECMI (or, "old D&D")
The party makes their way to the dungeon. Before leaving the town, they hire a guide, who is a basic 0th level man-at-arms. The process consists of dropping a few silver pieces, and the guide is nameless.
When the group reaches the dungeon, they leave the guide behind. They enter the dungeon, and fight twenty goblins. The wizard takes out a few with a well-cast sleep spell, before retreating and doing little in the combat, while the fighter and cleric perform much more ably. The fight takes a while (both in game, and out of game) - ten combat rounds, which translates to ten minutes in the game. But then, the goblins are dead.
The PCs loot the room, and search the place for secret doors. They find a concealed door in one wall, which leads to a treasure chest. The rogue searches for traps, but doesn't find any. Of course, his find traps skill is only 25%, so it's no surprise when the poison arrow trap is triggered, and the rogue is pricked and poisoned. He fails his save, and dies.
Opening the chest, they find a +1 longsword, which the fighter quickly accepts.
The PCs take their loot, and head home.
1E
Along the way to the abandoned monastery complex, the PCs encouter a hermit, who suggests that he accompany the PCs on their journey. They decide it is best that he do so, since he obviously knows the way there.
The monastery is mostly ruined, with only a few pillars of support on the surface, but their guide manages to find an entrance to the extensive monastery dungeons. The PCs prepare to enter, before the guide says "I will go no further; I will wait for you here."
Inside the dungeon, the PCs encounter a group of twelve goblins, lead either by "an especially large goblin" (a subchief) or an orc. The wizard still wipes out a few goblins with his sleep spell, while the dwarven fighter stands in the middle of the room, mostly dodging the goblins' attacks. The rogue pulls off a few shots with his short bow.
The fight takes almost ten minutes of game time, and significantly longer in real time. The group quickly decides to search the room, but wish to do so quickly, since wandering monsters could occur at any moment. Luckily, the elf in their party makes finding the concealed door that "pops" out of the wall easy. When they find the chest, the rogue searches it for traps, and doesn't find the poison arrow trap.
The rogue is poisoned, and dies. However, the group has managed to find a fair amount of wealth, including a red ruby. "No problem" says the dwarf. "We can raise our rogue when we return to the town".
Also in the chest is a +1 longsword, which the fighter takes proudly.
On the way out, the Guide waits for them. He backstabs the fighter, and then sneers "Hand over the red ruby, Or I will kill you all!"
A fight ensues, and the wizard is almost killed. The party returns to the town, broken and battered, but wiser for the experience.
2nd Edition
The group learns of the old Church of Shelae, a once-proud monastery that housed loyal acolytes. However, the PCs learn that several decades ago, a fire burned out the monastery, and many of the acolytes were burned alive in the blaze. Some say their ghosts haunt the monastery, and it has long been avoided...
The group - a Halfling Rogue loyal to his home village, a Vengeful Dwarven Fighter witha hatred for Orcs, an Elven Wizard/Fighter, and a kindly human cleric of Thor - make their way towards the dungeon, along the way encountering a guide named Finnaeus Marduk. After a lengthy RP session, Finnaeus agrees to escort the PCs to the monastery.
Many encounters ensue, including a whole side-adventure involving bandits. Also, both the dwarf and halfling get to make use of their mountaineering proficiency to flank the bandit party, while the elf finds a use for his heraldry skill. Eventually, though, the PCs make their way to the monastery, and make a thorough examination of the surface. In fact, there is an RP encounter with the ghost of one of the former abbots, who warns of grave danger in the monastery dungeons. "Beware the red ruby!"
Once the group enters the dungeon, they come across a group of eight goblins, as well as two goblins that are "considerably larger" than the rest. This fight lasts several minutes in game time, and ends when the wizard is able to cast a sleep spell.
The group then searches for secret doors. They find a concealed door, that had originally been put in the dungeon as a means of allowing a former acolyte to maintain an affair with one of the monastery nuns - in fact, this affair is somehow responsible for the whole place burning down (not that the PCs ever learn this, of course).
The chest is searched for traps. While the rogue could have put points into Find/Remove traps, he was, after all, a village halfling, and so decided to put points into Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, and Listen, meaning his Trapfinding skill is rather poor. The poor rogue opens the chest, and is poisoned. He fails his saving throw, and should die.
However, the GM has a sub-plot involving the rogue in mind next session, and so instead handwaves the scenario, instead inflicting just enough damage to put the halfling at 1 hit points.
Inside the chest is a +1 longsword. Everyone in the group looks at it, and decides it's useless - the fighter is proficient in axes, the halfling is too small, and the elf is proficient in short swords ("It's more in character!"). Since the item cannot be sold, the PCs leave it in the chest. But, hey, at least they found the red ruby!
On the way out, they are ambushed by Finnaeus. The dwarf lands a few strong hits, and one that should kill the traitor easily. However, the GM arranges the situation so that Finnaeus instead escapes - with the red ruby - so that the PCs can chase him in the next adventure.
3rd Edition/3.5E
The PCs approach the dungeon, a burned-out monastery. they've done some basic information gathering (particularly the rogue, who uses his gather information skill wisely!), but are ready to loot this dungeon!
Along the way, they encounter Finnaeus, who tries to convince his way to accompany the party. However, the Cleric and Rogue both have ranks in Sense Motive, and Finnaeus rolls low on his bluff check. The PCs realize his game, and surprise him. A fight ensues, and the mage blasts Finnaeus with a few spells, while the dwarven fighter power attacks for all he's worth.
Finn is killed in three rounds - less than twenty seconds.
Their resources expended, the group rests for the night, entering the monastery in the morning.
They make their way into the dungeon, and encounter a few small fights before coming across four goblin warriors (and a goblin expert with a crossbow), led by a goblin barbarian with improved initiative that flies into a rage. The mage casts a sleep spell that takes out two goblins, while the fighter and rogue square off against the barbarian. The cleric was able to cast a single buff spell on himself before the fight, and takes out the remaining goblins.
Afterwards, they decide to search the room. Knowing that they haven't found enough treasure commesurate with the CRs they have faced, they know treasure must be nearby, so they take 20 on their search checks - after all, wandering monsters are so passe.
They find a secret door, slide it open, and find the chest. The Rogue takes 20 on his search check, and finds the trap.
He decides to disable the device, while the rest of the group waits thirty feet away. While he fails on his check, and a needle device pokes him, the rogue "only" takes 2d6 points of constitution damage. Harmed, but not dead, the PCs open the chest, and find a red ruby (did I say ruby? I meant to say "Jade", or some other cheaper gem... they are only 1st level!) as well as a +1 longsword.
The dwarf can use the longsword, sure, but he has weapon focus in the war axe, so they just pack it away. They'll use it if they face a monster with damage reduction, but as soon as they can get magical weapons, they'll sell the sword and buy a cloak of resistance or something (the rogue could use that saving throw bonus against poisons!)
They make their way home, happy with their catch.
***
So, what's my point with all this? Besides being a little snarky:
1) That the rules systems of D&D do influence the game experience. Or, to put it another way, all those fond memories we have of BECMI cannot be re-enacted in 3E. The rules just don't allow it.
2) As the editions have progressed, fights have become smaller, while Player powers have grown.
3) 3rd edition has probably made the game more enjoyable for rogues, without relying on DM fiat.
And I'm sure there's a bunch of other points.
For what it's worth, I've played similar scenarios to those described above, and while I'm overgeneralizing, the outcomes are more or less how I've outlined it. BECMI tends towards simplistic descriptions, 1E tends towards a fair amount of detail, but is still focused on the dungeon; 2e tends to go overboard on detail, looks down on the dungeon experience, and often depends on GM fiat, while 3e often perhaps spends too much time and focus on the abilities of monsters.
