D&D 4E My party beat the dragon!! (A 4e playtest review)

[Stalker0]

So my party finally got a chance to grab the pregens and do a 4e playtest. We have all 6 pregens, and I gave everyone one magic item of 3rd level or lower to try out.

First of all, lets just get right to the end and talk about the dragon. The party encountered it in a big room with pillars and torches. The dragon was being commanded by a npc villian, who ordered it to kill the party and left. Then the fight got started. Here are the highlights:

1) The dragon opened up with a breath weapon followed by its fear aura, which rocked most of the party.
2) The cleric was able to get in a cause fear, forcing the dragon to run and allow the party a much needed round to make their saving throws.
3) Many dailies were used, only the fighter's actually hit.
4) The warlock managed to do the most consistent damage, constantly using eyebite (will was the dragon's weakest save) to stay out of danger.
5) The ranger teleported to a high area to get a +1 to attack rolls, and sniped for good damge from distance.
6) The wizard was nearly killed by a breath weapon. With his dying breath he used ghost sound to make the dragon believe his master was calling him from outside. I had him roll an intelligence attack vs the dragon's will save, and made it. The dragon left, giving the party a couple of rounds to regroup. The wizard then died from ongoing acid damage (we didn't know your took the damage first at the time).
7) The paladin's mark was INSANELY annoying. I started using tailslaps on the fighter, only to take 8 damage. Further the -2 made the difference, and I missed the fighter on several attacks.
8) The paladin was a true tank, he kept using total defense to raise his AC, and my dragon just kept missing. The imagery was great, this little halfling was just sticking his tongue at the dragon and kept pissing the dragon off.
9) Towards the end, the fighter and paladin stayed with the dragon. The fighter became a yoyo, I would knock him unconscious. Then the cleric used a power to DAMAGE HIMSELF, allowing him to provide some temp hitpoints to the fighter. The fighter kept getting back up, and I would waste attacks from the dragon knocking him back down (and taking 8 more damage from the paladin's mark).


The fight lasted over 20 rounds and was truly epic. It was fun watching the energy level in the room skyrocket as the fight went on. At the beginning the party was doing so badly, that everyone just laughed it off knowing that the dragon would finish them. But as the fight continued and they realized they had a chance everyone was on the edge of their seat.

As to the rest of the adventure, here are some more highlights.

1) The wizard used mage hand for all sorts of things. He took the arrows out of an archers quiver. Further, one time they fought some undead minions (I said they were animated pieces of skeletons). Because they were so light, I ruled the mage could use mage hand on them, and he would slam them into walls to destroy them. He also used ghost sound to make a sniper in a tree think the tree was breaking, forcing him to jump away.

2) The ranger used his daily on a cavern choker, who had conveniently grabbed a party member. Lets just say there was shock and awe when their friend took all that damage And of course a later quote, "That ability has to be once per encounter.....uh right?" - The ranger says as he fires again, and yes the choker had recovered the ability

3) I ambushed the party with a deathjump spider and a defiant rake, killing the wizard before initiative was even rolled.

4) The first fight of the night, everyone was feeling pretty good. Then I critted the fighter with a human berserker, and down he went.

5) I loved shifty kobolds, they are so easy to flank with. I used several of the kobold slingers to good effect. Another quote, "ME: Alright you get hit with a glue bomb. Your immobilized, oh you also take 6 damage." Player: "6 damage!! What the **** was that, so kind of crazy acid glue!!??"

6) Wizards are definitely still fragile, I killed the wizard 3 times during the adventure.

Let me close with some general comments on what I saw:

1) So far, 4e is everything I wanted it to be. Its fun, fast, and fierce. The party seemed to have a wonderful time. We got through 9 encounters (including the epic 20 round dragon fight) in 7 hours.

2) Dming monsters is fun again. The dragon felt like a dragon, I actually felt arrogant and powerful as I played him. Kobolds and hobgoblins were so unique, the players started actively breaking up hobgoblin formations when they started seeing the bonuses they were getting.

3) My party was skeptical about saving throws, but like many once we saw them in action they made a lot of sense.

4) I loved the bloody condition, and not just for the mechanical effects. It saves so much time when the players ask "whose hurt". I just look at the board and say, "the ones with the bloody chips underneath them." Further, as a dm its much easier to target players. My monsters look for bloody characters and target them, instead of just randomly figuring out who to attack.

All of this said, I did have some negatives:

1) Marking was hard for me as a dm. I found it hard to keep track of, and the paladin's mark seemed too powerful (I know its getting errated).
2) 4e is a minis game. I can't imagine playing 4e without a battlemap and minis. There are so many conditions and movement that change rapidly, you need the map to keep track of it all. I personally don't mind the map, but for those who hate it I think you'll have to change or give up on 4e.
3) Cleric is still in high demand. Everyone healing themselves was great, but the clerics healing played such a CRITICAL role in the adventure I can't see a party without one being nearly as effective.


So my final comment, play the game!! For those detractors out there, once you play it, I don't think you will care nearly as much about 50/50 saving throws and 1-1-1-1 movement. They've really done some good work on what I've seen so far...so give it a try!!

 

[VBMEW-01]

Awesome review, and a lot of great stuff in there. The classes are incredible, and your group used them much better than mine (the dragon stomped them).

Good notes

 

[bagginswagon]

Kill the Dwagon, Kill the Dwagon, Kill the Dwaaagon!!!

I'm trying to get my group to run the 'Raiders' encounters. I'll just have to enviously keep reading other groups going up against that dragon...

Regarding the paladin's marking power, until getting the errata, I would HR:

1. If the paladin doesn't attack what he marked (i.e. go total defense or run and hide, etc.) he doesn't get the bonus, AND he would get a reputation of being a holy sissy; and

2. if a creature marked by the paladin has an immediate power that can only target someone else, I wouldn't grant the damage. The damage should only occur when the creature chooses to attack someone else INSTEAD of the paladin.

 

[FadedC]

As another side note, I've been told by more then one source that if your at 0 hit points and you gain temporary hit points, your still unconcious and dying. So you can't quite have a fighter yoyo like that.

Also the paladins divine challenge only works once per round so if the dragon takes damage once, he can feel free to tail slap or take attacks of opportunity all he wants until the start of the next round.

 

[Oldtimer]

Also the paladins divine challenge only works once per round so if the dragon takes damage once, he can feel free to tail slap or take attacks of opportunity all he wants until the start of the next round.

True for OAs, but the tail slap is an immediate action, so that can only be used once per round.

 

[WampusCat43]

Didn't look like you used the dragon's darkness ability. That was a showstopper for us - until the DM stopped using it, we had no chance of hitting it. Once that happened, the sniper shot it full of holes.

 

[Dragonblade]

All of this said, I did have some negatives:

1) Marking was hard for me as a dm. I found it hard to keep track of, and the paladin's mark seemed too powerful (I know its getting errated).
2) 4e is a minis game. I can't imagine playing 4e without a battlemap and minis. There are so many conditions and movement that change rapidly, you need the map to keep track of it all. I personally don't mind the map, but for those who hate it I think you'll have to change or give up on 4e.
3) Cleric is still in high demand. Everyone healing themselves was great, but the clerics healing played such a CRITICAL role in the adventure I can't see a party without one being nearly as effective.


So my final comment, play the game!! For those detractors out there, once you play it, I don't think you will care nearly as much about 50/50 saving throws and 1-1-1-1 movement. They've really done some good work on what I've seen so far...so give it a try!!

Nice review! Sounds like you guys had a good time. Just some comments on your "negatives".

When we played, the DM just had the players track marking. It was their PC's ability and thus their responsibility. On the DM's turn, he would just ask which monsters were being marked and resolved their actions first (usually attacking those who marked them), then he would deal with the rest of the monsters. It was pretty easy for him to manage. I would shift some of the responsibility for marking back to your players and that should make it easier to manage.

While I think that the game is largely designed for us with minis, I found that no more true than with 3e. And my group had little trouble managing marking and conditions. So little in fact, that I think I could run mini-less 4e without too much trouble. I think I'll try it once the books come out and post my thoughts.

I agree that the cleric was very helpful. The little healing kicker that the cleric added to healing surges made a big difference and really saved the day several times in my 4e game.

And that last thing I'll add is that the new saving throw isn't really a save in the traditional sense, its more of a determination of duration.

 

[seskis281]

I would like to say this - this post makes me feel better about my fears that 4e would move even farther down the line of PC's being unkillable in any situation, even at low levels. Of course, that reality with this particular situation may be construed as a "negative" by those who didn't like PCs dying so easily in earlier editions...

I think the setup is interesting in and of itself. I wouldn't mind a bit of clarification - were the pregens of differing levels for different playtests? If so, what levels were these (I was assuming they are 1st but wanted to ask)?

If they were 1st I am somewhat startled by the mere thought of a full dragon encounter -- my 1st level parties have always found a group of sneaky, well-armed Kobolds a challenge in a cave setting full of traps, and they would scurry when encountering so much more powerful creatures (or have to devise elaborate non-combat plans to achieve a goal like getting around it). I realize this is just a difference in game philosophy perspective... the intention of 4e is to make "Heroic" characters from the get-go, and it certainly is less thrilling to say "we just beat the Kobolds!" than "We just beat the Dragon!" I guess if you are going to go with a 4x base increase to HPs, etc., add healing surges, marked and bloodied bonuses, etc., then what a 1st level party "is" changes up quite a bit to what a 4th or 5th level party is for me under AD&D, C&C or other older system rules. Not a prob for me if this appeals to others.

I am also glad to hear that encounters move much faster. I admit to being one of the ones who disparaged what I was seeing in 3.5 games, where I'd watch as a 3 hour session was essentially taken up with two long battles and maybe 10 minutes of roleplaying in between, with stacks of rules books, miniatures, maps and laptops to run them... with one round sometimes taking 10-15 minutes. I commend the designers if they have reversed this and made combat a smoother, faster process...

But the one significant thing in the playtest report that bothers me is:

2) 4e is a minis game. I can't imagine playing 4e without a battlemap and minis. There are so many conditions and movement that change rapidly, you need the map to keep track of it all. I personally don't mind the map, but for those who hate it I think you'll have to change or give up on 4e.

This is what I was most afraid of. In 27 years of gaming, I've never used minis beyond the most rudimentary of times - even just using dice on top of a table or book to show relative directions etc. I use a whiteboard now, just to identify basic layouts.

To me, FRPGs are about the imagination of the minds eye - seeing the fantastic not literally in front of you but in the more literary sense of imagination.

There has always been a tension pulling D&D between the simulationist (as the term has come to be known on the boards) who emphasize the fantasy battle/wargaming mechanics and the gamists who emphasize the narrative, the story and the character interaction. This was a tension that existed from the start as Chainmail morphed into D&D, and indeed many have noted the mention of minis in the earliest of D&D materials (the direct evolution of Chainmail). Of course, the RELIANCE on these as CENTRAL to the game play was almost non-existent for many, if not most.

I left "official" D&D with the advent of 3.5. I was interested in looking at 4e to see if some of the directions indicated (which did appeal to me) would make it a game I'd embrace again in addition to the other systems I've moved to. The emphasis indicated here on being a minis game diminishes that interest greatly.

Again, this is just my reaction and my own personal feelings.... I'm sure many will have the opposite view on 4e.

Cheers! And may whatever game you play give you hours of fun!

 

[catsclaw]

If they were 1st I am somewhat startled by the mere thought of a full dragon encounter -- my 1st level parties have always found a group of sneaky, well-armed Kobolds a challenge in a cave setting full of traps, and they would scurry when encountering so much more powerful creatures (or have to devise elaborate non-combat plans to achieve a goal like getting around it).

That dragon is supposed to be a challenge for a 4th level party. And it sounds like if this playtest had run some of the rules a little differently (take recurring damage at the beginning of the turn rather than the end, use the darkness ability of the dragon) it could easily have been a TPK. It's far from easy for a 1st level party.

And keep in mind, that's as low a challenge as dragons get in 4e. 3.5 has CR 3 dragons the size of cats. This is much scarier than those.

In 27 years of gaming, I've never used minis beyond the most rudimentary of times - even just using dice on top of a table or book to show relative directions etc. I use a whiteboard now, just to identify basic layouts.

Take it with a grain of salt. Frankly, I can't imagine running 4e without minis and a battlemat, but I can't imagine running 3.5 without minis and a battlemat. And I'm in a campaign right now that's playing that way.

There are more tactically important details in 4e than 3.5, but if you're skilled running a 3.5 battle in your head indications are that 4e should not be significantly more difficult.

 

[Stalker0]

Didn't look like you used the dragon's darkness ability. That was a showstopper for us - until the DM stopped using it, we had no chance of hitting it. Once that happened, the sniper shot it full of holes.

I did use it once, but yeah probably should have used it a lot more.

I'm sure if I we had known the rules a bit better the dragon would have killed the party, but any error that leads to that kind of epic fun can't really be considered an error

And yes this was the 1st level pregens we ran with.

The other thing I was really glad to see was that my party kept finding new uses for their abilities. I was worried they would get bored with their powers. But the wizard kept making use of mage hand, and always joked that elevator music (with ghost sound) was following him everywhere. The fighter used passing attack to great effect, and used tide of iron to knock creatures into pillars and into fire. The paladin would often run over to a wounded member, use lay on hands, and then charge into combat on the same round. The ranger used teleport to get to out of the way places for sniping. The warlock kept switching up his attacks to hit different saves and do the most damage. And at the end when the cleric started sacrificing his own hitpoints to give others temp hp was priceless.