Pathfinder 2E My Pathfinder 2e Post-Mortem

Thomas Shey

Legend
Understandable. I ran APs for a solid decade in PF1 up to about level 14 tops (even if the AP went further).

Yeah, there's a reason I tend to mention prominently in my compliments to PF2e that it doesn't break at higher levels. And from best I can tell, that applies to running it, too (though, again, I have not run it myself but I can tell a fair bit by just looking at statblocks).
(It might still run into the issue with high level PC-class-equivalent characters of having too many things to keep track of, but maybe not since there may be little reason to record a lot of skill feats and the like).
 

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Staffan

Legend
Yeah, there's a reason I tend to mention prominently in my compliments to PF2e that it doesn't break at higher levels. And from best I can tell, that applies to running it, too (though, again, I have not run it myself but I can tell a fair bit by just looking at statblocks).
We've played it up to level 11 (well, technically we've reached 12 but haven't actually played at that level) and nothing has broken yet. The main issue I've had is that skill DCs tend to assume laser-focus, or at least something close to it, so my sorcerer's Trained Arcana skill (with Int 12) is pretty useless when it comes to identifying anything even nearly level-appropriate.

(It might still run into the issue with high level PC-class-equivalent characters of having too many things to keep track of, but maybe not since there may be little reason to record a lot of skill feats and the like).
NPCs are generally not designed the same way PCs are, but the same way monsters are. So they don't have feats, although they may have special abilities that mimic them.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
We've played it up to level 11 (well, technically we've reached 12 but haven't actually played at that level) and nothing has broken yet. The main issue I've had is that skill DCs tend to assume laser-focus, or at least something close to it, so my sorcerer's Trained Arcana skill (with Int 12) is pretty useless when it comes to identifying anything even nearly level-appropriate.
I noticed this with skills too, and its a bummer.
NPCs are generally not designed the same way PCs are, but the same way monsters are. So they don't have feats, although they may have special abilities that mimic them.
I never had a problem with NPCs built like PCs. Especially after the NPC Codex came out. The change isnt the end of the world but not something I think is big improvement either.
 

Staffan

Legend
I never had a problem with NPCs built like PCs. Especially after the NPC Codex came out. The change isnt the end of the world but not something I think is big improvement either.
Having made a few NPC opponents to use where I modified the adventure I was running, it was a breeze to create moderate-level opponents. I did not have to concern myself with choosing feats or equipment or any of that stuff. I just chose that these opponents were level six (or whatever they were supposed to be, can't recall now), that they were going to be acrobatic nuisances that would be jumping from platform to platform while throwing daggers at the PCs, and then all the stats just fell into place. I probably spent more time typing them into Roll20 than I did on the mechanics.

Of course, I hadn't considered the stupid giant-totem barbarian who could easily get to them on the platforms with a reach weapon, but that's beside the point.

Oh, and a nifty side effect of NPCs effectively being monsters: you don't have to load them down with magic items which the PCs then get as treasure and sell off.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
We've played it up to level 11 (well, technically we've reached 12 but haven't actually played at that level) and nothing has broken yet. The main issue I've had is that skill DCs tend to assume laser-focus, or at least something close to it, so my sorcerer's Trained Arcana skill (with Int 12) is pretty useless when it comes to identifying anything even nearly level-appropriate.

Maybe close to it, but not on it; I've had secondary skills I still got use out of, and we played a full 20 level campaign (Age of Ashes).

NPCs are generally not designed the same way PCs are, but the same way monsters are. So they don't have feats, although they may have special abilities that mimic them.

I realize, but they do tell you if you really want to you could put together, say, an enemy warrior as a Fighter. But even if you did, most Skill Feats would be irrelevant so at worst you'd be paying attention to Class Feats (and maybe a couple of General Feats but most of the relevant ones you could just bake into the stat block other ways).
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I noticed this with skills too, and its a bummer.

I never had a problem with NPCs built like PCs. Especially after the NPC Codex came out. The change isnt the end of the world but not something I think is big improvement either.

I found it immensely painful at higher levels in D&D3.5. Consider how many feats a 12 level D&D3.5 fighter has. Now multiply that times two and toss in a level16 wizard. Don't forget to account for magic items, too. :cry:
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I found it immensely painful at higher levels in D&D3.5. Consider how many feats a 12 level D&D3.5 fighter has. Now multiply that times two and toss in a level16 wizard. Don't forget to account for magic items, too. :cry:
I made good use of templates, published adventures, and reference books. Though, yes if you are building them from scratch every time its a doozy.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I made good use of templates, published adventures, and reference books. Though, yes if you are building them from scratch every time its a doozy.
It wasn't the construction that was the issue; it was keeping track in-play. Two different 14th level fighters can well have 20 different feats amidst them, the wizard has some too (and his massive list of spells) and all of them have varied magic items, some of which won't be simple + to attack things. There were just too many moving parts.

And some higher level monsters (notably dragons and fiends) were as bad or worse, since while they might not have the magic items, you tossed on a bunch of special abilities, too.

Contrast that with the discrete bits you'll have to keep track of even higher level PF2e monsters, and there's no real comparison (admittedly, part of this is that you can pretty much ignore all the spells down more than about three ranks which not everyone loves, but there's absolutely no question it makes a lot of it simpler to manage).
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
It wasn't the construction that was the issue; it was keeping track in-play. Two different 14th level fighters can well have 20 different feats amidst them, the wizard has some too (and his massive list of spells) and all of them have varied magic items, some of which won't be simple + to attack things. There were just too many moving parts.

And some higher level monsters (notably dragons and fiends) were as bad or worse, since while they might not have the magic items, you tossed on a bunch of special abilities, too.

Contrast that with the discrete bits you'll have to keep track of even higher level PF2e monsters, and there's no real comparison (admittedly, part of this is that you can pretty much ignore all the spells down more than about three ranks which not everyone loves, but there's absolutely no question it makes a lot of it simpler to manage).
Oh yeah, the mods, thats a doozy too. I usually just found the numbers before and after buffs and applied it as needed. I probably missed a few +s here or there and a few -s too, but I'm guessing it came out in the wash. Stat blocks usually had all I needed but it wasnt easy at high levels. Did I mention I refused to play over level 14?
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Oh yeah, the mods, thats a doozy too. I usually just found the numbers before and after buffs and applied it as needed. I probably missed a few +s here or there and a few -s too, but I'm guessing it came out in the wash. Stat blocks usually had all I needed but it wasnt easy at high levels. Did I mention I refused to play over level 14?

Notably, that was exactly the level when I just gave up in D&D3.5. But it had become a progressive problem at least starting a couple levels earlier.
 

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