My player thinks paladins "suck"

[dreaded_beast]

I have a player that has the following character:

6 Paladin/3 Marshall/2 Kensai

He is very reluctant to gain anymore paladin levels since he believes that after a certain level, the paladin abilties are not worth getting. In his opinion, the only thing a paladin gets to look forward to, in terms of class abilties, are a few extra smites, some spells, and a few more cure diseases. He believes that when you compare the paladiin with other classes, it is very weak in terms of special abilties that are gained.

Note: My players are min/maxers, which I don't mind too much

While I would love for him to get more paladin levels, I can't help but agree with him just a little.

Is the paladin a weak class, considering the "role-playing" restrictions?

Anythiing I can do to make the player want to gain more levels in paladin?

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

First question is why do you want him to take more paladin levels? If he's happy with the direction the character is going, pushing him in another direction isn't going to sit well, regardless of how min-maxed the character becomes.

I do happen to think that the paladin could use some interesting extra stuff at higher levels, even if it was just a couple extra bonus feats or something. Or use the prestige-paladin from UA, which would at least make him a better caster.

Paladins (like sorcerers) tend to benefit more from taking a PrC than the others, although Kensai wouldn't be one that springs to my mind right away. Some of a paladin's abilities come into play while mounted and carrying a lance, which doesn't fit the the kensai's devotion to a single weapon.

I don't think there are any 'roleplaying' restrictions on a paladin, per se. If you are roleplaying a paladin, its by choice, and moral dilemmas come with the territory. What's the phrase? "Lawful good doesn't mean lawful stupid'

 

[Psion]

Hmmm... the paladin in my high level game was potent by any standards. Especially if undead (Lay on Hands) or Outsiders (Dispel Evil) were involved.

That said, it's their character. Why worry about it?

 

[Voadam]

lay on hands goes up and up and up.

Spells are not that spiffy though, but a few are nice.

They are about equal to other classes without the restrictions IMO + IME. but the restrictions are no more stringent at higher levels than at lower ones so that is really irrelevant to his decision to continue in the class. Unless he has picked up improved sunder and is looking at the possibility of falling to blackguard.

 

[dreaded_beast]

That said, it's their character. Why worry about it?

Yes. True.

I guess I could be trying to force my own opinions of how classes are upon my players. A bad habit that I picked up from my old playing group I suppose.

I was talking with my player and he was very verbal in how paladin were a weak class, which I didn't entirely agree with. He never played a paladin before, so he wanted to try one out, but discovered that the abilties of the paladin were not to his liking. I have never really played a paladin either, but it just rubbed me the wrong way how "vocal" he was regarding the weakness of the paladin.

However, I still wonder about the abilities of the paladin at later levels.

 

[Psion]

I think the best you can do is build a nice tricked out single class (or with a good synergy class) paladin and showcase it as an NPC in a battle or two. If they don't like it, then fine. But it might get them to take a second look.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

One thing we did in the latest game I played in was allow some extra things to be done with the Cure Disease ability, which in most games gets very little use. Kind of like how you can do different things with your Turning ability.

 

[Mercule]

Yes, but they charge 25 gp to do it.

I would not discount the power of Lay On Hands or smites -- especially if he takes some of the feats that work on those. Paladin can be fairly potent if played with a certain mentality.

The real problem with the class is that it requires a pretty narrow mentality. Which I why I tend to think it should be a PrC, not a base class.

As others have said, too, if the player's concept of the character doesn't work well with the Paladin class, there's no good reason to do so.

 

[Maliki]

Sounds like your player is just not happy with the paladin class in general, so I would not force the issue. Since you said that your group likes to min max he might think he has milked the class for all that he can and now it's time to milk something else.

 

[RustyHalo]

nifty Paladin options...

This might not help the poster at present, but for future reference, there are some very nice variant paladins available:

As a core class, Monte Cook has published an alternate paladin in The Book of Hallowed Might. He specifically mentions that his variant is an attempt to give incentives to paladins gaining higher levels.

In Green Ronin's mammoth supplement, The Book of Hallowed Might, there is a spiffy Core Class they call the Holy Warrior -- in effect, a different read on how to do Paladins. A nice feature is that nearly every level gets a special ability.

Another alternative is to eliminate the Paladin as a Core Class, and instead detail the paladin as a Prestige Class. Malladin's Gate (in their PDF, "Forgotten Heroes: Paladins") offers some stunning templates. "Call of Duty," a PDF published by CBG, has some nice features too.

I hope this helps.