My player thinks paladins "suck"
- Thread starter dreaded_beast
- Start date
FireLance
Legend
I've always found that more Smite Evils per day is a good thing, and that the paladin spells are a nice bonus, considering that the class gets full BAB. Naturally, that's just my opinion, and if you don't like smites and spells, you won't find the higher paladin levels to be useful and may want to consider a PrC. Are you open to non-WotC material? If so, check out the links in my sig. Your player seems to be melee-focused, so he might find the Blessed Armsman to be interesting.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Obviously he's not see the true potential in a paladin, ESPECIALLY SL paladin Pr-classes. (Mithril, Silver, Iron, and Gold Knights, truly rocketh)
Fr Paladins have it hard cause their only true patron is a lesser god anyway.
Showcase a nice dwarven paladin of Clannigidin Silverbeard though. Use combos from Complete Divine (such as Trained Spellcaster and that sword and shield weapon one) and something dwarven too.
However if he doesn't wanna take more paladin levels, it's his choice.
Of course Silas the Lightbringer (my favorite PC paladin) would have something else to say about that.
Fr Paladins have it hard cause their only true patron is a lesser god anyway.
Showcase a nice dwarven paladin of Clannigidin Silverbeard though. Use combos from Complete Divine (such as Trained Spellcaster and that sword and shield weapon one) and something dwarven too.
However if he doesn't wanna take more paladin levels, it's his choice.
Of course Silas the Lightbringer (my favorite PC paladin) would have something else to say about that.
dreaded_beast
First Post
Thanks for all the replies everyone!
I think I may go the route of trying to find an "alternate" paladin and find some useful feats.
Firelance, I especially like your feats, PrCs, and your "alignment" system, hehe. Good ideas!
I think I may go the route of trying to find an "alternate" paladin and find some useful feats.
Firelance, I especially like your feats, PrCs, and your "alignment" system, hehe. Good ideas!
Pants
First Post
I don't think that the Paladin is 'weak' at all. It can be a very potent class in my eyes, but... I think, compared to the other Core classes, that it's kind of boring. It's a horribly front-loaded class that gains little more than extra smites (which are pretty nice...), extra Remove Diseases (x/per WEEK!), some weak spells, more lay on hands (nice), and improved mount abilities (which, depending upon the campaign may not even be used very much).
Don't get me wrong, it is a nice class, but I think the spread of its abilities is too front-loaded. Not as bad as the 3.0 ranger, but definitely not like the druid or the monk.
Don't get me wrong, it is a nice class, but I think the spread of its abilities is too front-loaded. Not as bad as the 3.0 ranger, but definitely not like the druid or the monk.
Some thoughts:
1. Paladin spells get much more interesting in Complete Divine / Magic of Faerun. Remember that most paladin spells set out in MoF were "grandfathered in" by PGTF.
2. Paladins are *horrible* multiclassers. Unlike wizards, who get all of their powers plus a ball of wax when they go into a PrC, very few PrCs let paladins continue to progress in any of their skills. I actually thought about the Kensai as a Paladin variant for a while -- but your player is right, more than two levels in it is too much.
3. So, what are your options? Fist of Raziel permits spell progression and smite progression, and gives some pretty nifty abilities related to smite along the way. Most importantly, the feat requirements are pretty low (servant of the heavens and, I think, either power attack or weapon focus).
Another route that I think might be equally interesting is Templar. There, though, the skill requirements are murder. It might require some reworking of the character to get you into the class. But the class has full paladin spell progression (although the two don't stack, who cares -- you get a double complement of the low-level paladin spells which are the good ones anyway). More importantly, you pick up two (maybe three?) bonus feats, plus weapon specialization.
And the best bit is that you get extra smites that stack with your paladin levels, AND you get Mettle, which, combined with divine grace, really gives your saving throws some teeth.
Paladins are very fun. They are not, however, easy to play, nor are they balanced (3.5 gave it to them in the shorts: Holy Sword got nerfed, turning got nerfed, spellcasting got nerfed, and they got Summon Mount as a consolation prize). But if well done, they are a valuable and flexible addition to the game. I rarely play anything else.
best,
Carpe
1. Paladin spells get much more interesting in Complete Divine / Magic of Faerun. Remember that most paladin spells set out in MoF were "grandfathered in" by PGTF.
2. Paladins are *horrible* multiclassers. Unlike wizards, who get all of their powers plus a ball of wax when they go into a PrC, very few PrCs let paladins continue to progress in any of their skills. I actually thought about the Kensai as a Paladin variant for a while -- but your player is right, more than two levels in it is too much.
3. So, what are your options? Fist of Raziel permits spell progression and smite progression, and gives some pretty nifty abilities related to smite along the way. Most importantly, the feat requirements are pretty low (servant of the heavens and, I think, either power attack or weapon focus).
Another route that I think might be equally interesting is Templar. There, though, the skill requirements are murder. It might require some reworking of the character to get you into the class. But the class has full paladin spell progression (although the two don't stack, who cares -- you get a double complement of the low-level paladin spells which are the good ones anyway). More importantly, you pick up two (maybe three?) bonus feats, plus weapon specialization.
And the best bit is that you get extra smites that stack with your paladin levels, AND you get Mettle, which, combined with divine grace, really gives your saving throws some teeth.
Paladins are very fun. They are not, however, easy to play, nor are they balanced (3.5 gave it to them in the shorts: Holy Sword got nerfed, turning got nerfed, spellcasting got nerfed, and they got Summon Mount as a consolation prize). But if well done, they are a valuable and flexible addition to the game. I rarely play anything else.
best,
Carpe
Calico_Jack73
First Post
See I have a problem with Paladins retaining their abilities if they leave the class but I also have that problem with Clerics and Druids too... pretty much any character that gets their abilities from a divine or outside source. IMC a Paladin (Cleric or Druid for that matter) would lose their abilities the minute they quit acting as an agent for their divine superior but that is a roleplaying thing. The way I see it, why would a divine power continue to grant special favor to these characters if it were no longer in it's interest to do so. Even the good D&D dieties are supposed to be more "human" and at least a little on the selfish side (I picture them like the gods in Hercules: The Legendary Journeys).
IMC Paladins are a VERY rare sight. When a Paladin is claimed by a god it is a time for great rejoicing and feasting. Part of the reward for playing a Paladin is in the Role-Playing. When a Paladin walks into a tavern the owner sits him at the nicest table available, cooks a special meal, and oftentimes won't accept any money in payment. A true blue Paladin is a larger than life hero in the eyes of the people. Sure, the other classes may become extremely powerful but may also be very selfish about their power. Everyone knows that no matter how powerful a Paladin may become he will always be a hero of the people.
IMC Paladins are a VERY rare sight. When a Paladin is claimed by a god it is a time for great rejoicing and feasting. Part of the reward for playing a Paladin is in the Role-Playing. When a Paladin walks into a tavern the owner sits him at the nicest table available, cooks a special meal, and oftentimes won't accept any money in payment. A true blue Paladin is a larger than life hero in the eyes of the people. Sure, the other classes may become extremely powerful but may also be very selfish about their power. Everyone knows that no matter how powerful a Paladin may become he will always be a hero of the people.
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Pbartender
First Post
Psion said:
This is what I usually do too... Just make certain that you use no more than the same character creation rules the Players have to use. You want to make the NPC effective without making him arbitrarily powerful.
Since my last campaign, my gaming group has a whole new respect for Enchanters, Necromancers and Bards... they will never again ciew Charisma as a dump stat.
Calico_Jack73
First Post
Pbartender said:
Hah! When the 3.0 Psionics book came out my group learned to fear a villain with a high charisma... especially when they are telepaths.
