My thoughts on Replacing LA: The Minotaur!

[Sylrae]

Instead of using LA, My thought is Making Races + Racial Classes.
The Race is going to be an ECL 0 Race.
The Class should be roughly on par with standard classes for power.

Basic Rules:
Use Upper Krust's CR System to assess Power.
The Race should be between .3 and .5 in value
the Class should be around 1.1672 Per level on average
All Racial drawbacks have to be taken up front.
For racial Abilities, Try to pick the most logical ones for the ECL +0 Race
You can give the ECL 0 race weaker versions of the final powers. SR could be a Save Bonus v magic for example. Then replace the bonus at a higher level.

The Class follows standard class rules, not like Savage Species.
IE: Hd at every Level, BAB following actual progressions, Skill Points Every Level.
The number of HD Doesnt have to match the Monster Manual, Just make the levels match up in value for balancing purposes. The MM says the Minotaur is worth a Level 8. I got him to a 7 with an extra HD and Skills. He was a bit too powerful with all the racial abilities spread over less than 7 levels.

You don't have to take all your racial levels, and you don't have to take them first.

Racial Classes Don't Give Experience Penalties.

In Higher Level Games, DMs could rule that you have to take X Racial Levels.

-------------------------------

I'm using the Minotaur as my example.

Let me know what you guys think.

[FONT=Fixedsys]Minotaur: :):):):) Level Adjustments![/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Monster Manual[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Hit Points:   6d8 (6 to 48)[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]BAB   6[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Ability Point Mods: +8 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Large Size[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Space/Reach  10[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Speed   30[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Darkvision  60[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Fort   +2[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Ref   +5[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Will   +5[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Feats   3[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Skills   9x(2+Int)[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Skill Bonus: +4 Search, Spot, Listen[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Weapon Proficiency: Greataxe, Simple[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]+5 Natural Armor[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]1d8 Gore Attack[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Powerful Charge[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Natural CUnning[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Scent[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]LA +2[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Class Skills: Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot.[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Via MM & LA, Level 8.[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]According to Upper Krust's CR System[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Minotaur: 8.68 > 7 > 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]+Golden Rule: If Class Levels and HD don't make up at least half the Monster's CR, use the CR for the class levels and HD, double it, and halve any excess CR beyond that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]+Silver Rule: If the Monster does not have PC quality Gear, multiply the CR by 0.85[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]My Thoughts:[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Make an ECL 0 Race.[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Make a decent melee class for the Minotaur similar to the Monster Class.[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]The Below Uses Upper Krust's System for the Values. It has no Level Adjust. Just a Class.[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Any of the class levels can be taken any time by a Minotaur.[/FONT]
 
[FONT=Fixedsys]Minotaur:[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Race: (Between 0.3 and 0.5)[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]+2 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha    -0.2[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Large Size      +0.0[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]-1 AC    -0.1[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]-1 Attack   -0.1[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]10 Foot Reach   +0.2   [/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]10 Foot space   -0.1[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]+4 Grapple/Improved Carrying +0.1[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Darkvision      +0.2[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Scent       +0.2[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Gore       +0.225[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Skill Bonus +2 to Search, Listen, and Spot  +0.12[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    ------[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.545[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Automatic Languages: Common, Giant[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]--------------------------------------------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Racial Class: (3.5e Core Classes average 1.1672/level)[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Class Skills: Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Spot. +0.005/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]HD: d8       +0.15/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]BAB: As Fighter      +0.2/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Skill Points: 2+int(x4 at level 1)   +0.023/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Bad Fort      +0.03/Level      [/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Good Ref      +0.06/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Good Will      +0.06/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Standard Feats      +0.0766/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]standard Ability Scores     +0.05/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]standard Attacks     +0.025/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Standard Gear      +0.2/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    -------------[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.8796/Level[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +6.1572 (7 Levels)[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Things to Include:[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]+6 Str   +0.6[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]+2 Con   +0.2[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]+5 Natural Armor +0.5[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Powerful Charge  +0.7[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Natural Cunning  +0.2[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]Weapon Proficiencies +0.01[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys] -----[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys] +2.21[/FONT]
 
[FONT=Fixedsys]Level  Base Cost Features  Cost  Overall Total / Standard Value[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]1  +0.8796  Weapon Proficiencies +0.01  [/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys] Natural Cunning  +0.20  [/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    -----[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.21  1.0896  / 1.1672[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]2  +1.7592  1 Natural Armor  +0.10[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys] 2 Str   +0.20[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    -----[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.30  2.0592  / 2.3344[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]3  +2.6388  1 Natural Armor  +0.10[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys] 2 Con   +0.20[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    -----[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.30  3.2388  / 3.5016[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]4  +3.5184  1 Natural Armor  +0.10[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys] 2 Str   +0.20[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    -----[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.30  1.4184  / 4.6688[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]5  +4.3980  1 Natural Armor  +0.10[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys] 2 Str   +0.20[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    -----[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.30  5.5980  / 5.836[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]6  +5.2776  1 Natural Armor  +0.10[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    -----[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.10  6.8776  / 7.0032[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]7  +6.1572  Powerful Charge  +0.70[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    -----[/FONT]
[FONT=Fixedsys]    +0.70  8.3572  / 8.1704[/FONT]

Hmm. All these columns line up nicely in notepad. If ssomeone can get this formatting to work super. for now ill attach the txt.

 

[concerro]

That is way to complicated. The LA on most monsters is correct. The problem is that racial HD is treated as class levels. The best approach is to give your monster the ECL you think it deserves.

The issue that may come up is that an ability that is useful at a lower level may not be useful later so you may want to use the unearthed arcana method of buying off level adjustments.

You could also just break monster down into class levels. Libris Mortis, and Savage Species* do this. You could go off of those examples.

I am not sure if Savage Species does or not.

 

[Runestar]

The OP's example seems like an extremely convoluted way of saying "Let's just re-evaluate the ECL of each monster and re-design a savage progression for every one of them.

That is way to complicated. The LA on most monsters is correct. The problem is that racial HD is treated as class levels. The best approach is to give your monster the ECL you think it deserves.

Or alternatively, continue to treat 1 racial HD as 1 class lv, but revise the LAs so that their ECL serves as a more accurate indicator of how useful that monster is relative to other PCs of that lv.

For example, in the case of a gnoll, I would recommend either doing away with its LA of +1 or its 2 humanoid HD (prefer the latter, since this allows your gnoll PC to mimic a gnoll npc stat-wise, but it sucks if you are taking a class with a lot of skill points). This should put it roughly on par with the goliath, power-wise.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is essentially what Monte Cook did for racial classes in Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved...and it works extremely well.

The game is worth picking up, BTW, for that and all the other really good ideas in its pages- variable level spells, alternative spell effects based on alternative components, etc.

 

[Sylrae]

That is way to complicated. The LA on most monsters is correct.

This isn't a quick and dirty way to guesstimate whether or not a monster isgood for a player at a given level. This is more like, racial class design, to make a race be functionally playable, and be quite sure it's on par with other classes. If you're using pathfinder classes, everything tends to be a little bit more powerful, but once HOW MUCH more powerful is actually calculated, tweaking the racial classes to match it becomes easy. It's more of a "What do you think of the idea of designing monsters like this instead?" Obviously you can't convert every monster on the fly, at least not without some sort of tool/calculator (A tool would make this much easier/faster). That minotaur took me a half-hour.

The problem is that racial HD is treated as class levels. The best approach is to give your monster the ECL you think it deserves.

You are quite right on this one that is one of the big problems, and if you look at Upper Krust's LA System, he shows what each Kind of Monster HD is actually worth in terms of levels. Most are worth between .3 and .7 of a level. However, just accurately guaging the power of a monster doesn't necessarily make it playable. But if you want to see accurate challenge ratings and see the system to evaluate them accurately, look at Uppeer Krust's book. Hell, it works great for designing class levels too.

The issue that may come up is that an ability that is useful at a lower level may not be useful later so you may want to use the unearthed arcana method of buying off level adjustments.

That is true, the abilities are often less useful at the uppser levels, but also, at low levels, before you CAN buy anything off, the lost hit points, saves, skills, and feats make you weaker than an equivalent ECL +0 Race, in your frailness particularly.

You could also just break monster down into class levels. Libris Mortis, and Savage Species* do this. You could go off of those examples.

I am not sure if Savage Species does or not.

The way it is done in Libris Mortis and Savage species make classes that are worse than standard classes, and they don't have a base-race for an ECL 0 case, so you have to take levels in the class before anything else.

The OP's example seems like an extremely convoluted way of saying "Let's just re-evaluate the ECL of each monster and re-design a savage progression for every one of them.

Hmm. Sortof. You'll notice the class functions like an actual class, and you don't get screwed out of your skills, feats, and HD like you do in savage species. Additionally, Neither of those allow you to play the monster before you take any of the class levels IIRC.

Or alternatively, continue to treat 1 racial HD as 1 class lv, but revise the LAs so that their ECL serves as a more accurate indicator of how useful that monster is relative to other PCs of that lv.

For example, in the case of a gnoll, I would recommend either doing away with its LA of +1 or its 2 humanoid HD (prefer the latter, since this allows your gnoll PC to mimic a gnoll npc stat-wise, but it sucks if you are taking a class with a lot of skill points). This should put it roughly on par with the goliath, power-wise.

You could Allow players to drop the class levels and take the LA, but the issue I've found is that the LA levels don't tend to be as useful as class levels after a while, and the lost hit points, skill points, and feats can be fatal at low levels. This alternative is to make the monsters be of comparable power as PCs the whole way up.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is essentially what Monte Cook did for racial classes in Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved...and it works extremely well.

I heard he did something like this, but I haven't seen it to see the particulars. I got the Idea from how they did the core Races in World of Warcraft d20, where the races have a base-race, then a totally optional racial class. Like a Paragon class. then I thought, what if I did regular monsters like that, then it would be easy if one of my players wanted to play a monster (I find they very, very often want to play some monster race or another, I rarely have more than once player who wants to play an LA+0 race in a game). Having seen Upper Krust's CR Guide, it was an obvious way to balance it.

I figured I would get some useful critiques, and then take a stab at converting monsters, while leaving the rules on how to design them for if anyone else wanted to use them.

The game is worth picking up, BTW, for that and all the other really good ideas in its pages- variable level spells, alternative spell effects based on alternative components, etc.

Does Arcana Evolved have a Monster Manual that has this kind of race + racial class setup for the SRD Monsters, Or does it just do a few of them?

Now that it's a bit better explained, can someone give a critique of the idea, or tell me if monte cook covered it for the SRD Monsters already and saved alot of work?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The good news is that MC did it for several races.

The bad news is that he only did it for the unique races that appear in the main book- there isn't really a MM for AU/AE.

However, looking at those classes could give you a good insight as to how to balance things.

My starting point, when I do such classes for my campaigns, is look at creature type. Some, but not all, have particular HD types, unusual save bonuses, vulnerabilities and immunities, and so forth.

My general rule of thumb after that is +1LA = +1 Racial class level.

For unusual stat adjustments, I try to spread positive adjustments over several levels. For instance, a Githzerai with a +6 Dex adjustment would get +2Dex as its base bonus, +2 in its 1st RCL, and +2 Dex in its 2nd RCL. Negative stat adjustments are front loaded- it usually doesn't make much sense for an adventurer to get stupider as he gains XP.

Really, though, most of them get pretty easy to figure out. If its a monster you've seen done up in another source like Savage Species, all you need to do is a little tweeking.

And most of the humanoid monsters are easy to do.

 

[Sylrae]

Yeah, that's basically what I figured. If he hasn't done the SRD Monsters though, they still need to be done before they can be usable.

I think I need to evaluate the CRs of the Pathfinder classes to get an average CR to base each monster level on.

I did the above based on 3.5e sources, but that was because I was using a 3.5e MM. When I get my Pathfinder MM in a couple weeks, most monsters will be using that system.

I plan on making Monster Races and classes and then putting them online.

The Idea, as mentioned is similar to savage species, but the class should give the same benefits every standard class does, and you shouldn't have to take every level of it.

Also, I agree it's pretty easy to figure out. You can rough it out in your head, and you can get a more precise judgment of class power using UK's system.

For Monsters with higher HD then they should have, giving them an HD suitable for their abilities could work better than having an inflated number of d6's.
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Is there any interest in this sort of idea? Expanding the CR Rules, and simplifying their presentation? An Automated tool to calculate race + class like this? SRD Monsters compiled and converted using a system like this?

(If people want an archive of revised monsters, then having a few people help me would speed things up).

What do you all think?

 

[Kerrick]

I'd have to agree - you're making this far too complicated. Just go to an ECL-based system; it's a lot easier and more accurate. Minotaurs are ECL 6, so a minotaur PC with 1 level is ECL 7. See? Simple. All you do is give them what's listed in the book, add the ECL to their class levels, and you're good to go.

(In case you're wondering, I've converted all the monsters to the ECL-based system, here.)

 

[Sylrae]

That sortof works (Minotaur ECL becomes 7 if they have PC Equipment.) That's how I'm getting the total ECL to begin with, but it still doesn't make them playable at lower levels.

This would make the monsters playable from level 1. It also means you could easily run a lesser version of the standard monster against a weaker party.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I plan on making Monster Races and classes and then putting them online.

Cool!

The Idea, as mentioned is similar to savage species, but the class should give the same benefits every standard class does, and you shouldn't have to take every level of it.

<snip>

For Monsters with higher HD then they should have, giving them an HD suitable for their abilities could work better than having an inflated number of d6's.

That is exactly what Monte did.

Is there any interest in this sort of idea? Expanding the CR Rules, and simplifying their presentation? An Automated tool to calculate race + class like this? SRD Monsters compiled and converted using a system like this?

(If people want an archive of revised monsters, then having a few people help me would speed things up).

What do you all think?

I think its a winner and if someone had done it as a pro-level product, I'd have bought it.

I suggest you concentrate on races suitable to be used for PCs first, then expand into a method for having creatures of varying levels across the board.