D&D 4E Mythusmage's D&D 4e Thoughts

mythusmage said:
Format: Three books.

Core Rules: Contains the mechanics for running a character in D&D. Character creation, character advancement, life in the world.

Setting: Has the mechanics for runinng a campaign. Plus information on the setting, economics, politics, social and physical geography.

Magic: Since magic in D&D is a bit too large to stick in the Core Rules book, it gets a tome of its own.

So D&D won't have monsters anymore?

I'm skeptical of the idea that magic would get it's own book. The basic core rules book should contain everything a player needs to participate in the game. Can you imagine how cheesed off people would be if they needed to purchase a minimum of two books to play the game?

Also, you seem to be assuming that the core rules will come with a specific setting hard wired into the book? That's going to be one large book if it's going to be as comprehensive as the DMG and also contain setting material that's fleshed out well enough to be worth the effort to include.

Each book would be available in two formats, print and electronic. The electronic version would come as a set of PDFs, one file per chapter. Said files available through POD should the purchaser so wish. The print version would come with the PDFs on CD. The PDFs would be available for purchase online for those who don't feel like paying for the print version.

I just don't think WOTC is going to do this. Piracy issues are twitchy enough without making it even easier for people to steal copies of the core material. What business reason would compel them to think this would be a good idea?

All the rest of your thoughts seem plausible.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Hmm, what I would want (assuming BAB and HD are not bought as skills)

1. 3 books

2. Sean Reynold's Fewer Absolutes so that classes do not give immunities, but +10 to saves.
Same for races, unless there is a really good reason for immunity-for example a construct not being able to get drunk or needing to sleep.

3. Races:
a) Remove "cultural elements" (e.g., bonus to fighting certain races, weapons familiarity, stonecunning) from the Races.

b)Take a page from Rolemaster and HARP by introducing the concept of cultures based on enivronment (Cold, Temperate, Warm, Aquatic, Desert, Forest, HIll, Plains, Marsh, Mountain, Jungle, Marsh. Mountain, urban street, urban middle class, urban noble) The player chooses an appropriate culture would give some extra background skills, cultural weapons proficiencies, stonecunning etc.

c) add occupation as per d20Modern

d) Make half-elf, half-orc, etc. a feat for humans.


4. Classes:
a) Barbarian, Beguiler, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk (OA Shaman), Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Spirit Shaman, Swashbuckler, Wizard, Wizard Specialist, Warrior Mage (done as AEG's Myrmidon not the Duskblade), Warrior Monk (PHB Monk)

b) Clerics: Reduce the cleric's BAB, HD, and armor. Make a spontaneous caster with more specialized list based on deity. Grant more domain abilities or abilities that reflect character is blessed (e.g., divine grace).

c) Druids: Reduce the druid's BAB, HD, and armor. Make the Shapeshift variant (PHB2) core. Provide environmental variants.

d) Paladins and Rangers use the bard spell progression. Balance the other aspects of the class accordingly.

e) wizards become spellpoint casters (UA) with the vitalizing option (UA).
f) specialist wizards use the specialist wizard variant abilities (UA) and get their own spell lists.
g) Sample class variants. Definitely include the Barbarian Hunter, the Fighter Thug, and the Wilderness Rogue.
h) d20 Modern talent trees for several classes especially the fighter, monk, and rogue. Make the Bard's Bardic Lore a talent for several of the classes.

5) Skills:
a) Keep any combining of skills to a minimum
b) Give more skill points

6) Weapon Groups (UA)

7) Combat
a) class based defense system designed to work with armor
b) Armor as Dr
c) Damage Save. Or, if Hit Points must be kept, Mass Damage Save=Con modified for being larger or smaller than M

8) Setting elements (e.g, Racial names, deities, and other greyhawk references) moved to an appendix of the PHB or to the DMG as an example of building campaign/sample campaign.
 
Last edited:

Dungeons & Dragons 4e ideas

I would also stick with the existing three books, although I might structure them differently.

Player's Handbook 4e

-Abilities

I like 'em all, so I'd keep Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha. I'd try to streamline figured stats or various adjustments (lifting, dodging, health/fatigue, etc.).

-Races

I'd keep the core races (Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Halfling, and human) but ditch the Half-Elf and Half-Orc in favor of a 0-level-adjustment humanoid race, say Hobgoblin.

I'd add basic information on two subraces for each race (with a third to be in the DMG or MM).
-Dwarf: Hill, Mountain (Duergar)
-Elf: Sylvan/Wood, High/Gray (Drow)
-Gnome: Forest, Rock (Tinker)
-Halfling: Hairfoot (Hobbit-like) and Ghostwise (Kender-like) (and a more barbaric subtype)
-human: no subraces, but maybe templates based on various historical cultures: European, Asian, African, etc. Such differences might be reflected in the names of classes, for example.

I'd also add terrain-based backgrounds: urban, forest, mountain, etc.

-Occupational Classes
I'd also include some background on wealth and social class.

Base Classes 1-10 (and Advanced Classes, levels 10-20; prestige classes would be in the DMG):
-Cleric (Druid, Paladin, Monk)
-Fighter (Ranger, Barbarian, Gladiator)
-Rogue (Bard, Thief-Acrobat, Swashbuckler)
-Sorcerer (Wizard, Specialists including Illusionists)

-Skills: I'd like to see more skills; point-buy system is fine. Consolidating skills, as in True20, such as Spot and Listen into Notice, is a good idea.

-Feats: I'd like fewer or more streamlined feats.

-Equipment: Expanded rules on animals/hirelings, fewer obvious stat-boosting magic items (which would be in the DMG, anyway). Tie equipment to skills, occupational classes. Weapons that are specific to races should be rare and optional (i.e. Elves may prefer longbows and Dwarves axes, but they don't need specific nonmagical models).

-Combat: I'd streamline it. While not going as far as D20 "Mutants & Masterminds" 2nd Ed., reducing options such as Attacks of Opportunity and Grapple or moving them into advanced rules makes sense here.

Dungeon Master's Guide

-Aside from the usual advice to starting DMs on how to run a game, I'd like to see more world-building advice, options for higher-level characters, tables for quickly generating towns, encounters, terrain/dungeons, magical treasure, and NPCs. Prestige classes should be more customizable to campaign, say a Knight with ties to the rulers of a specific kingdom rather than to the default Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms setting.

Rules on creating a pantheon, using the existing classical or D&D gods as examples, would be nice. Storytelling, plot creation, and challenging characters in the context of a campaign's history rather than with monsters or dungeons would also be helpful. Troubleshooting party conflicts might help beginners. Expanded weapon and optional combat rules could go here.

Monster Manual

-Simpler (and error-free) stat blocks. More examples of monstrous NPCs and PCs, expansion of encounters. Maybe move the treasure information into this book. I'd put random encounter tables by level and terrain here, rather than in the DMG. Rules for building or adapting monsters would also be nice. I have no problems with the existing types, but perhaps an appendix or index grouping them into lists would be helpful.

Further books could expand on each of these, a la the Unearthed Arcana for DMs, PHBII for role-players, and of course, Fiend Folio or MMx... Of course, we'll have to wait and see what Wizards of the Coast comes up with! Happy gaming...
 

What I'd like to see:

1. Expand the base number of levels from 20 to 100 by spreading the power gain of the existing levels 1-20 over the first 80 levels, weighted in favor of levels 5-12 (which would be appx. levels 10-55). Play would generally be expected to go from level 5-10 to level 60, about like a typical console RPG, but the rules would be designed to go up to 100. Bonuses exceeding rolls would be a feature, not a bug, IMO.
Chances of happening: essentially none.

2. Rebuild the existing classes using a point buy system. They should all end up with the same number of points at their 'capstone' level, and ideally within 5% of their points at each individual level (perhaps 10% at 1st level). Include these rebuilt classes in the PHB, and the system used to make them in the DMG. Make it extremely clear that building new classes is the DM's job (and WotC's, of course; got to sell them splatbooks ;) ), not the player's.
Chances of happening: poor.

3. Do the same thing for races as was done for classes. I think this is actually a bit more likely, because there seems to be more discontent with the LA system and the 'balance' of the core races than with the class system, especially in the core. See: dwarves vs. half-orcs/half-elves. Possibly make half-@@ a feat or template (in general, a LA+0 template) that can be applied to multiple creatures.
Chances of happening: decent.

4. Do the same thing for spells as was done for races and classes. The point-buy system for spells should be effects-oriented like the in the HERO system. Of course, include the prebuilt standards in the PHB and the system in the DMG. Spell research should use these guidelines, of course.
Chances of happening: very poor.

5. Remove the arbitrary need for a 'healer' and rebalance the cleric and druid accordingly. Healing should be a bonus, not a requirement, just like any other ability. On the flip side, make healing spells *much* stronger. WotC of all companies should have known how efficient life gain has to be to be worthwhile. An action taken to cast a heal spell (which delays your losing the battle) is an action that could have been taken to cast an offensive spell or attack (which causes you to win the battle).
Chances of happening: good.

6. In fact, remove all forced party roles. Design the game in a way that makes a combination of classes interesting and useful, rather than leaving in artifacts (like the rogue's trapfinding ability or the need for healing) that force a party to include certain classes or suffer gravely for it. The 'magic-user' and 'fighting-man' roles don't need to be forced; the 'cleric' and 'thief' roles either shouldn't (cleric) or don't (thief/rogue). Electronic games have found ways to make using a mix of characters beneficial and fun despite having fewer useful roles, so this isn't impossible by any means.
Chances of happening: good.

7. Remove Vancian magic and x/day abilities in favor of either x/encounter, SP/MP (which regenerate over time), unlimited but weaker or unlimited but with drawbacks spellcasting and abilities. x/encounter seems to work the best.
Chances of happening: poor for spells, very good for x/day abilities.

8. Make counterspelling effective. This actually ties into (4.) - effective counterspelling should be the major check on magic's power, not limiting it on a per day basis. Choosing to counter a spell should be a viable choice and should be made at instant speed, as in Magic the Gathering. The mechanics (swift action casting times) are already in place. Like healing, counterspelling must be very effective if it consumes resources or, worse, actions, since it only prevents/delays losing rather than winning in its own right.
Chances of happening: decent.

9. Include action points in the core rules. Then expand them to at LEAST the level of M&M hero points, if not Cinematic Unisystem drama points. In short, make them the mechanism by which the players, normally only in control of their PCs, exert narrative control. One action point may only give a bonus to a die roll, two may count as a minor success, but a sufficient number should give the player Wushu-level control over events. Like all abilities, action points should not refresh on a per day basis. I like Mutants & Masterminds' refresh system, wherein hero points are given out when the DM fudges for a villain in the way a hero point would be used or brings a hero's complication into play.
Chances of happening: very good for inclusion, poor for expansion, decent for refresh rate/system.

10. Clean up the creature types, with a heavier emphasis on subtypes. Suggested types: Beast, Humanoid, Spirit. Then make a skeleton Humanoid (Undead), an angel Humanoid (Outsider, Good), an air elemental Spirit (Elemental, Air) and a dragon Beast (Dragon). Don't be squeamish about a creature having 4-5 subtypes if needed - they are far easier to key abilities off of and should be used extensively. Creature type cleanup has been ongoing in Magic for years, and D&D could use the same thing if not more extreme.
Chances of happening: decent.

11. Clean up the social skills. Make them clearer, possibly a cleaned-up version of Rich Burlew's diplomacy variant, and include good DM advice for using them - as well as for the option of reducing their role. Discuss the main methods: roll first then roleplay results, rolling only, roleplaying only, and roleplay for bonuses/penalties to the roll.
Chances of happening: good.

12. In general, make skills only a few levels behind spells. A 20th level rogue's Hide and Move Silently (possibly combined into Sneak) should be better than a 3rd level wizard's invisibility and silence, but the wizard's spells should be better than a 3rd level rogue's skills. Similarly, Diplomacy and Intimidate should lag a few levels behind suggestion and dominate person - but their ability to influence actions should eventually be just as powerful.
Chances of happening: poor.

13. Reduce the importance of equipment. Make an equipment focused character an option, not a requirement. Ideally, make the game effects of equipment a class feature. King Arthur's weapon is important to his mystique; Lancelot's is not. Aragorn's weapon is; Conan's is not. Cloud's is; Terra's is not. Reduce the reliance on assorted glowy knick-knacks like Boots of Striding and Springing and Bracers of Armor.
Chances of happening: poor.
 

helium3 said:
So D&D won't have monsters anymore?

I'm skeptical of the idea that magic would get it's own book. The basic core rules book should contain everything a player needs to participate in the game. Can you imagine how cheesed off people would be if they needed to purchase a minimum of two books to play the game?

Also, you seem to be assuming that the core rules will come with a specific setting hard wired into the book? That's going to be one large book if it's going to be as comprehensive as the DMG and also contain setting material that's fleshed out well enough to be worth the effort to include.

Monsters? In the setting book. Along with the rules for running a game. The magic book is for the hundreds (thousands?) of spells running around.

For the books themselves I'm thinking 4 128 page signatures with 8 point type in three columns plus sidebar and space for graphics. Text dense books in other words. Meant more for study than use at the table. The table is where the PDFs come in. By the time 4e comes out there will be ebook readers capable of displaying PDFs properly, and at an affordable price.

While I'm prognosticating here, let's cover player "races". Included races (species) would include...

Dwarfs and all their races
Elves and all their races
Gnomes and all their races
Goblins and all their races
Halflings and all their races
Hobgoblins and all their races
Humans and all their races
Kobolds and all their races
Orcs and all their races

Plus guidelines for incorporating traits from other species into the core species to account for interbreeding. Half-elves for example.

The whole thing written and presented in a manner that invites concentrated study and facilitates retention of information. With a proper index, one common to all three books and shared between all three books
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
13. Reduce the importance of equipment. Make an equipment focused character an option, not a requirement. Ideally, make the game effects of equipment a class feature. King Arthur's weapon is important to his mystique; Lancelot's is not. Aragorn's weapon is; Conan's is not. Cloud's is; Terra's is not. Reduce the reliance on assorted glowy knick-knacks like Boots of Striding and Springing and Bracers of Armor.
Chances of happening: poor.

#13 is really a must IMO.
 

mythusmage said:
For the books themselves I'm thinking 4 128 page signatures with 8 point type in three columns plus sidebar and space for graphics. Text dense books in other words. Meant more for study than use at the table. The table is where the PDFs come in. By the time 4e comes out there will be ebook readers capable of displaying PDFs properly, and at an affordable price.

99% of the players I know and have gamed with don't study the books outside of the game table. The books should be usable at the table I would think.
 

Flexor the Mighty! said:
They should just buy Castles & Crusades Iron Heroes and add decent workable rules for sorcerors and wizardry and make it 4e, with a few tweaks here and there of course.
Fixed it for you - hope you don't mind. :)
 


Remove ads

Top