D&D 3E/3.5 Natural Weapon size in 3.5

[Caliban]

Where in the 3.5 rules does it state what size a natural weapon is? I know that in 3.0 they were considered to be two sizes smaller than the creature, but I can't seem find that text in the 3.5 PHB or MM.

The reason I ask is because of Power Attack.

If you are wielding a two-handed weapon, you get x1.5 your Str bonus to damage, and do +2 damage per -1 penalty with power attack.

If you have a single natural weapon your primary attack (such as a Gore or Bite attack), then you get x1.5 your Str bonus to damage.

Do you also get the double Power Attack with a single natural weapon, or just the single +1 damage per -1 penalty?

I think you don't, but I want to make sure I'm not overlooking anything.

 

[calypso15]

Where in the 3.5 rules does it state what size a natural weapon is? I know that in 3.0 they were considered to be two sizes smaller than the creature, but I can't seem find that text in the 3.5 PHB or MM.

The reason I ask is because of Power Attack.

If you are wielding a two-handed weapon, you get x1.5 your Str bonus to damage, and do +2 damage per -1 penalty with power attack.

If you have a single natural weapon your primary attack (such as a Gore or Bite attack), then you get x1.5 your Str bonus to damage.

Do you also get the double Power Attack with a single natural weapon, or just the single +1 damage per -1 penalty?

I think you don't, but I want to make sure I'm not overlooking anything.

You can use power attack with all of the attacks. They're all considered 1-handed. And with secondary attacks (unless it says different), you add 1/2 strength bonus. Sources: Power Attack and Improved Multiattack.

Calypso

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where in the 3.5 rules does it state what size a natural weapon is?

In the text of the Weapon Finesse feat.

"Natural weapons are always considered light weapons."

I know that in 3.0 they were considered to be two sizes smaller than the creature, but I can't seem find that text in the 3.5 PHB or MM.

There's no 'two sizes smaller' any more; weapons are light, one-handed, or two-handed. A dagger, for example, used to have a -8 penalty on Disarm checks for being Tiny; now it has a -4 for being Light.

Natural weapons are considered light, like unarmed strikes.

Do you also get the double Power Attack with a single natural weapon, or just the single +1 damage per -1 penalty?

Just the 1-for-1. A single natural weapon is still a light weapon; it's just one that you can get 1.5x Str bonus to damage with. It's neither a two-handed weapon, nor a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, so no 2-for-1.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

You can use power attack with all of the attacks. They're all considered 1-handed. And with secondary attacks (unless it says different), you add 1/2 strength bonus. Sources: Power Attack and Improved Multiattack.

Calypso

The power attack feat does not directly refer to the size of a natural weapon, although it does indirectly imply that they are light weapons.

That may be text that was not adjusted from the 3.0 version of natural weapons though, which is why I'm trying to find a more direct statement one way or the other somewhere in the rules. I just haven't found it in the rules on natural weapons in the Monster Manual, or in the weapon size rules in the PHB (although the PHB does state that an unarmed strike is always a light weapon).

Secondary attacks isn't really relevent to the question.

I'm not sure what book Improved Multi-Attack is from, it's not in the 3.5 Monster Manual though.

 

[Caliban]

In the text of the Weapon Finesse feat.

"Natural weapons are always considered light weapons."


-Hyp.

Ah, that's what I was looking for. I just wish they would put rules like this in the proper rules section (such as the Natural Weapons entry in the Monster Manual, or the Weapon Size section in the PHB), instead of as a footnote in a feat (or in the equipment list, as they do with crossbows).

Thanks Hyp.

 

[calypso15]

Ah, that's what I was looking for. I just wish they would put rules like this in the proper rules section (such as the Natural Weapons entry in the Monster Manual, or the Weapon Size section in the PHB), instead of as a footnote in a feat (or in the equipment list, as they do with crossbows).

Thanks Hyp.

It's important that you not take that quote by itself. Because if you did, monsters wouldn't be able to power attack with their natural weapons (you can't power attack with light weapons). You also have to consider the "Special" section of Power Attack that says:

"If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies."

Calypso

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah, that's what I was looking for. I just wish they would put rules like this in the proper rules section (such as the Natural Weapons entry in the Monster Manual, or the Weapon Size section in the PHB), instead of as a footnote in a feat (or in the equipment list, as they do with crossbows).

It does lead to arguments.

Like whether you add 1.5x Str bonus to the primary head of a double weapon. Under double weapons, it only states that they're treated as a one-handed and light weapon combination for the purpose of attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat; receiving 1x Str bonus is nothing to do with two-weapon combat, and it's not an attack penalty.

To find that using a double weapon as a double weapon means it is considered a one-handed/light combination, full-stop, one needs to check the Power Attack feat.

To which people will, and with justification, argue that perhaps the line from Power Attack only applies to the combination of double weapons with the Power Attack feat. If the description of double weapons were more explicit, the problem would go away.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's important that you not take that quote by itself. Because if you did, monsters wouldn't be able to power attack with their natural weapons (you can't power attack with light weapons). You also have to consider the "Special" section of Power Attack..

You can't Power Attack with light weapons... unless they're unarmed strikes or natural weapons.

A natural weapon is considered a light weapon, but you can Power Attack with it. It's not considered a one-handed weapon for the purposes of Power Attack; it's considered an exception to the light weapon prohibition on Power Attack.

-Hyp.