Neandertal's? 'dem dere's orcs!!!

[Tonguez]

I've use the Neanderthal Orcs before, I also figured why not extend it so halflings became Austropithecus(sp) and Ogres Gigantipethicus. Homo erectus (or was it habilis?) was present as goblins. Elfs were evolved reptiles (troodons) thus:

I also ascribe to the 'Feathered Dinosaurs' theory and one of Protoceratops' predators was none other than velociraptor (which had feathers). So if the ancients were to find a mixture of protoceratops and velociraptor fossils with the raptor bits showing signs of feathers I don't think the griffon would be too much of a leap...

 

[Particle_Man]

As Turjan and Nuclear Platypus have pointed out, there was ferocious conflict between Britain (with its allies) and Japan in Burma, Singapore and elsewhere in SE Asia. Indeed, during and immediately after WWII in Britain, the Japanese were hated just as much if not more than the Germans due to reports of their mistreatment of British POWs.

Now you are making me want to see the movie "Bridge Over the River Kwai" again. (whistles)

 

[Particle_Man]

Very Interesting. I am curious about what this predator was. Is there any more information you might have - a name, a link? I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

sorry, I never heard the radio program, it was a friend. But she was listening to cbc (the main canadian radio service) so that may give you a first clue.

 

[tarchon]

sorry, I never heard the radio program, it was a friend. But she was listening to cbc (the main canadian radio service) so that may give you a first clue.

http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN12-19-97/dinosaur_story.html

 

[demiurge1138]

http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN12-19-97/dinosaur_story.html

That might be a recreated prehistoric sound, but the problem is, Parasaurolophous was not a predator.

This is not to say that the sound isn't pretty freaky.

Demiurge out.

 

[mythusmage]

That might be a recreated prehistoric sound, but the problem is, Parasaurolophous was not a predator.

This is not to say that the sound isn't pretty freaky.

Demiurge out.

I see another problem with the hypothesis. Air wouldn't be blown through the hollow crest, it's far more likely that the crest would act as a resonating chamber. The animal producs the sound as normal, with the chamber amplifying and modifying the sound.

Where protoceratops and gryphons are concerned, keep in mind that the ancients didn't have our knowledge. They didn't know what we now know. They had no knowledge of protoceratopsian anatomy and could make mistakes regarding it we wouldn't.

Look at early iquanodon recreations. From splayed legged quadrapeds with nosehorns to bipeds, to juvenile bipeds and adult quadrapeds that could rear up on their hind legs. Or consider the current controversy over pterosaur stance. A pre-scientific people confronted with something novel is apt to come up with most any description that sounds good.

 

[tarchon]

That might be a recreated prehistoric sound, but the problem is, Parasaurolophous was not a predator.

This is not to say that the sound isn't pretty freaky.

There's a general notion that the infrasonics are a key component to the supposed atavistic fear response.

 

[Zander]

True, but since it's no more than complete speculation, I don't know that it's particularly informative. It could well be interesting, though.

I stand by my orcs = Huns more or less interpretation, myself. It's easier than one that relies on subconscious influences and, more importantly, it doesn't directly contradict what Tolkien himself said, as the orcs = Japanese interpretation does.

In the absence of any hard evidence (and I'm not aware of any), all links between Tolkien's orcs and real world cultures remains speculative including the orcs = Huns hypothesis. It should be noted that Tolkien was not above blending real world cultures (e.g. dwarves = Nordic/Icelandic + Jewish + original elements) in the process of creating the various cultures in Middle Earth. It is therefore possible that multiple real world cultures contributed to his concept of orcs. We can guess that these include Hun and Japanese but this is conjecture.

 

[Desdichado]

http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN12-19-97/dinosaur_story.html

Parasaurolophus was a relatively mild-mannered herbivore, if it's anatomy (not to mention fossilized stomach contents of closely related animals) is any guide. Kinda like a big scaly cow of the Mesozoic. If that was the sound of the Ur-Predator, than the entire research project is laughable.

 

[Desdichado]

In the absence of any hard evidence (and I'm not aware of any), all links between Tolkien's orcs and real world cultures remains speculative including the orcs = Huns hypothesis. It should be noted that Tolkien was not above blending real world cultures (e.g. dwarves = Nordic/Icelandic + Jewish + original elements) in the process of creating the various cultures in Middle Earth. It is therefore possible that multiple real world cultures contributed to his concept of orcs. We can guess that these include Hun and Japanese but this is conjecture.

Oh, I agree, and I'm not trying to say my orcs = Huns interpretation is rock-solid or "factual", just that I think it makes a better case than orc = Japanese, and that I favor it. The orc = Japanese interpretation requires you to directly contradict what Tolkien has said about his work, for one thing (that there was no real-world correspondence with WW2) while the Huns picture has a few things going for it:

• The description of orcs is very close to the exaggerated descriptions of Huns as pseudo-bestial demonic sub-humans that the Romans and some of the Germanic tribes literally used to describe them.
• The Huns were an integral part (as villains) in some of the key primary sources and Germanic sagas that Tolkien read and putatively used as inspiration for the Lord of the Rings in the first place.

I'm not so sure about the dwarves and Jews connection either; Tolkien himself referenced that only in regard to the dwarves having undergone a Diaspora and exile from their homeland(s) that paralleled the Jewish condition prior to the re-establishment of the state of Israel in the middle of this century. Other than that, I don't think there's anything particularly Jewish-like about the dwarves at all.