Necessity of a Social Negotiation System? – When Should It Be Relevant?

[HeritageTTRPG]

Howdy everyone!

I'm currently refining the rules for social negotiation in my developing TTRPG, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the following matter.

In a lot of tabletop RPGs, social negotiation plays a significant role in interactions between players and NPCs. However, I'm asking myself, when social negotiation shouldn't be relevant.

For example, let’s consider two very different scenarios where social negotiation might play a determining factor:

1. Bartering with the local shopkeeper for a better price on potions.
2. Trying to persuade a mother of two to sacrifice one of her children to the demon lord Gruk'Xelgoth.

It's obvious that not every conversation warrants a negotiation check. During casual NPC interactions, such as asking directions or chatting about the weather, negotiation may not be needed. But in some cases, where the stakes are higher and the intent is more specific, players may engage in negotiation to achieve a particular goal. In these moments, should social negotiation rules always come into play, or should they be reserved for rare, high-stakes situations?

Here are a few questions I’ve been pondering:

• When do you feel social negotiation rules are essential for driving the story forward?
• Do you think social negotiation should be a constant feature of every roleplaying interaction, or should it be used more sparingly, reserved for moments where it truly matters?
• Are there any exceptions where the system shouldn’t intervene, and players should rely on roleplaying or narrative cues alone?

I’d love to hear your thoughts and experiences with this!

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

If you're asking 'when should dice rolls be used in social interactions?' - I think I find they should be used like any other role: when a failure can have serious results.

Do I think a barter session with a shopkeeper needs a dice roll? Generally no - UNLESS the players are trying to absolutely abuse the shopkeep (when it should be a No - because a shopkeep needs to be as proficient in running a business as you'd expect a fighter to be proficient in fighting)

I don't think dice rolls should be involved with scenario #2 - I don't feel there should be ANY dice roll that would cause a mother of two to sacrifice a child UNLESS she's already a believing cultist. That's basic human nature - it shouldn't be a 'cool sploit' that players can abuse because they've maxed their social stats and skills. Serious roleplaying should affect this scenario, and magical effects where you absolutely puppetmaster a person should also work - but not a situation where you can just dice for it IMO

 

[HeritageTTRPG]

If you're asking 'when should dice rolls be used in social interactions?' - I think I find they should be used like any other role: when a failure can have serious results.

Do I think a barter session with a shopkeeper needs a dice roll? Generally no - UNLESS the players are trying to absolutely abuse the shopkeep (when it should be a No - because a shopkeep needs to be as proficient in running a business as you'd expect a fighter to be proficient in fighting)

I don't think dice rolls should be involved with scenario #2 - I don't feel there should be ANY dice roll that would cause a mother of two to sacrifice a child UNLESS she's already a believing cultist. That's basic human nature - it shouldn't be a 'cool sploit' that players can abuse because they've maxed their social stats and skills. Serious roleplaying should affect this scenario, and magical effects where you absolutely puppetmaster a person should also work - but not a situation where you can just dice for it IMO

Very interesting take, something that seems to be already reflected within the system I am working on!

I do agree that these type of systems need to reflect (human) instinct, at least to some degree. This, however, bares the danger of overcomplicating things quite a bit, as social interactions can be quite unpredictable ... especially from a player's perspective. Engaging roleplay is probably something I will be going to factor in, too!

 

[Voadam]

It’s a matter of taste for when to use them as opposed to gm fiat or roleplayed out.

I prefer them for offscreen downtime activities or a quick roll after role play or second person describing an intention and approach when it can go multiple directions. I prefer roleplayed out in general though and gm quick adjudication.

 

[Distracted DM]

If you're asking 'when should dice rolls be used in social interactions?' - I think I find they should be used like any other role: when a failure can have serious results.

Do I think a barter session with a shopkeeper needs a dice roll? Generally no - UNLESS the players are trying to absolutely abuse the shopkeep (when it should be a No - because a shopkeep needs to be as proficient in running a business as you'd expect a fighter to be proficient in fighting)

I don't think dice rolls should be involved with scenario #2 - I don't feel there should be ANY dice roll that would cause a mother of two to sacrifice a child UNLESS she's already a believing cultist. That's basic human nature - it shouldn't be a 'cool sploit' that players can abuse because they've maxed their social stats and skills. Serious roleplaying should affect this scenario, and magical effects where you absolutely puppetmaster a person should also work - but not a situation where you can just dice for it IMO

I had thought that dice rolls should be used when the outcome is in doubt- not just when failure will have serious results.

Other yeah, agreed, there's a limit as to what a die roll will get you. It's not mind control, the shopkeeper isn't going to give something away just for a good die roll.

 

[MGibster]

In a lot of tabletop RPGs, social negotiation plays a significant role in interactions between players and NPCs. However, I'm asking myself, when social negotiation shouldn't be relevant.

As I like to tell my players, "Social skills are not a form of mind control."

For example, let’s consider two very different scenarios where social negotiation might play a determining factor:

1. Bartering with the local shopkeeper for a better price on potions.
2. Trying to persuade a mother of two to sacrifice one of her children to the demon lord Gruk'Xelgoth.

In truth, in scenario #1 nothing interesting happens. Oh, boy! You've saved 10% on healing potions. Who cares? Even if cold, hard cash was important in the game, saving 10% is hardly the type of thing anyone is going to remember. Can you just imagine it?

And lo! Morton the Bargainer spake, "Woe to me, humble shop keeper, for thine goods are priced thusly that I might need sell my first born as to afford your fine potions. Perhaps a bargain could be had, one in which you accept less coin than you have asked for, but one which will indeed put coin in your pocket and allow me to keep my first born?"

The shop keepers heart was filled with sorry, "My good man," he said with a tear in his eye, "Never in all my years have I heard such a tale of sorrow to melt even the coldest of hearts. Of course, dear sir! You shall have a 10% discount on all goods within my fine establishment, so that you may afford my wares and keep your first born child!"

So let's look at scenario #2. On it's surface, no mother would sacrifice one of her children to the demon lord Gruk'Xelgoth. Would they? No. Never in a million years. Maybe. Sometimes. Medea murdered her own sons to get revenge on her ex-husband Jason. So maybe some mothers would be willing to sacrifice one of their children to a demon lord in exchange for something. Maybe mom's whole family is going to be ruined, but by sacrificing this one child the rest of the family will be spared. Or maybe the mom is power hungry and willing to sacrifice a child to attain her goals.

While social skills aren't mind control, if you know something about what a person wants or anything about their personality, you're more likely to be successful at convincing them to do something even if its horrible.

 

[HeritageTTRPG]

As I like to tell my players, "Social skills are not a form of mind control."



In truth, in scenario #1 nothing interesting happens. Oh, boy! You've saved 10% on healing potions. Who cares? Even if cold, hard cash was important in the game, saving 10% is hardly the type of thing anyone is going to remember. Can you just imagine it?

And lo! Morton the Bargainer spake, "Woe to me, humble shop keeper, for thine goods are priced thusly that I might need sell my first born as to afford your fine potions. Perhaps a bargain could be had, one in which you accept less coin than you have asked for, but one which will indeed put coin in your pocket and allow me to keep my first born?"

The shop keepers heart was filled with sorry, "My good man," he said with a tear in his eye, "Never in all my years have I heard such a tale of sorrow to melt even the coldest of hearts. Of course, dear sir! You shall have a 10% discount on all goods within my fine establishment, so that you may afford my wares and keep your first born child!"

So let's look at scenario #2. On it's surface, no mother would sacrifice one of her children to the demon lord Gruk'Xelgoth. Would they? No. Never in a million years. Maybe. Sometimes. Medea murdered her own sons to get revenge on her ex-husband Jason. So maybe some mothers would be willing to sacrifice one of their children to a demon lord in exchange for something. Maybe mom's whole family is going to be ruined, but by sacrificing this one child the rest of the family will be spared. Or maybe the mom is power hungry and willing to sacrifice a child to attain her goals.

While social skills aren't mind control, if you know something about what a person wants or anything about their personality, you're more likely to be successful at convincing them to do something even if its horrible.

That roleplaying easily gets you +2 modifier!

But what about a negotiation system in addition to a system, where you can build up a potential relationship/reputation with the local shopkeep, eventually leading up to new adventures and story tropes? Perhaps a combination of both would be more suited, to make such trivial encounters more engaging and meaningful.

 

[soviet]

You can get people to do pretty much anything with the right pressures. Even something unthinkable today can become acceptable tomorrow. Look at world events 80 years ago and world events happening right now. Look at people strongly advocating certain actions right now that they argued vociferously against just a year or two ago.

In my game Other Worlds I discuss this issue (social conflict, not fascism). My game has stake setting, which means that the player and GM have to agree that the result being sought is reasonable given all of the circumstances. So, if you want to try to convince the King to give up the throne, I don't want to say it's impossible, but you have to do the work and build the leverage to make that a plausible outcome. Or, perhaps, stumble into those circumstances. It can't be a two minute conversation out of the blue when everything's going great.

The second question is how this affects player characters. Can they be forced to give up the throne, abandon their existing world views, betray their friends? On any dice roll? My answer in Other Worlds is that for player characters these rolls create a pressure. This is within the agreed stakes. You can still choose not to go along with the new policies, help fight the neighbouring village, betray your friends, etc, but you will pay a cost. Maybe a severe one. You could be seen as unreasonable and uncooperative and overlooked for the next promotion. You could be ostracised in your community and have bricks thrown at your windows. You could be faced with prosecution, asset seizure, and eventually execution.

 

[soviet]

Here are a few questions I’ve been pondering:

• When do you feel social negotiation rules are essential for driving the story forward?
• Do you think social negotiation should be a constant feature of every roleplaying interaction, or should it be used more sparingly, reserved for moments where it truly matters?
• Are there any exceptions where the system shouldn’t intervene, and players should rely on roleplaying or narrative cues alone?

I’d love to hear your thoughts and experiences with this!

I think this is very dependent on what kind of play experience a game is designed to support. I'm not sure what your first bullet point actually means. But for the other two, I would ask how often do the rules touch play in other circumstances like combat, or stealth, or travel? What inputs are players supposed to provide? What goals are they trying to accomplish in play? If there are two or more possible outcomes, how do we determine which one happens, and how? Is combat different from non-combat? Is stealth non-combat and travel non-combat different from social skills non-combat?

 

[MGibster]

But what about a negotiation system in addition to a system, where you can build up a potential relationship/reputation with the local shopkeep, eventually leading up to new adventures and story tropes? Perhaps a combination of both would be more suited, to make such trivial encounters more engaging and meaningful.

I guess everything is dependent on the game. I always like to ask whether something is going to make a difference in the game. i.e. Is this a meaningful interaction? For most of my games, dealing with a merchant, buying and selling items, just isn't a meaningful encounter. It doesn't mean it couldn't be, just that it typically isn't. And no matter which way you slice it, there are going to be trivial encounters. Not every encounter with an NPC will be meaningful or important.