Why do RPGs have rules?

clearstream

(He, Him)
The active use of empathy is decidedly nonoptional from a principles of play perspective. So then too the importance of procedures becomes more paramount to maintain separation at important times. You need the dice to make you do it because if you are doing everything else right you shouldn't have the heart to do it.
The idea is that if one has sufficient empathy then one's compunction will prevent meting out the unwelome/unwanted. Why doesn't that apply to rules? Because their normative-force is greater than that of principles. Implied is that even rules will lack sufficient force in some cases, right?

As an aside, is it right to read your post as accepting that for games that lean less on empathy, principles could be enough?

This is decidedly different from a B/X referee who is actively striving for stoicism the entire time they are sitting at the table.
Is it right to say though, that you either don't believe they can be truly stoic, or that they don't mete out the unwelcome/unwanted? Or is this an example of a game that leans less on empathy, where the normative-force of principles could be sufficient?

(I'm not mentioning rules there because I assume that by stoic you mean they wouldn't scruple to mete out the unwelcome/unwanted, but please correct me if that's wrong.)
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Sure, but there are levels to our interest and empathy. I do not find it all that controversial to stipulate that those higher levels of interest and empathy in a given character would make it more difficult to rely on principles alone. Just like it's harder for me to eat cookies that are at the store than right in front of my face.

I also do not find it bizarre to stipulate that on a normative basis if empathy and interest are necessary in order to provide a given play experience that on a normative basis that type of play will have higher interest and empathy towards the characters in question.

Just to have functional play in Apocalypse World the GM has to understand who the characters are as people in order to create PC-NPC-PC triangles, in order to make GM moves that places characters under pressure, etc. The active use of empathy is decidedly nonoptional from a principles of play perspective. So then too the importance of procedures becomes more paramount to maintain separation at important times. You need the dice to make you do it because if you are doing everything else right you shouldn't have the heart to do it.

This is decidedly different from a B/X referee who is actively striving for stoicism the entire time they are sitting at the table.

I personally don't think it's very useful to flatten these differences for sake of discussion because then we end up in a place where really the only answer we can give to anything is "it depends".
Yeah I am just thinking about my play in Stonetop last night. My character was put in a couple of situations. Mostly it's pretty clear what the optimal through line would be, but Yorath is certainly motivated to not necessarily follow that mechanically and fictionally optimal route!

@Manbearcat knows all this, it's right on his sheet even, he's a Fox with Trickery as an instinct. Even if it screws things up, even if it makes trouble for him and his allies, he's going to act on that. I mean, maybe he will learn to trust people more and his instincts will change. We've played basically a couple sessions of this game, so I don't know yet, and even later he might possibly change a bit. OTOH maybe Yorath's fate, regardless of how much we identify with him, is to ultimately reject trust and screw everyone over.

I'm 100% sure that the choice will arise!
 

The idea is that if one has sufficient empathy then one's compunction will prevent meting out the unwelome/unwanted. Why doesn't that apply to rules? Because their normative-force is greater than that of principles. Implied is that even rules will lack sufficient force in some cases, right?

As an aside, is it right to read your post as accepting that for games that lean less on empathy, principles could be enough?


Is it right to say though, that you either don't believe they can be truly stoic, or that they don't mete out the unwelcome/unwanted? Or is this an example of a game that leans less on empathy, where the normative-force of principles could be sufficient?

(I'm not mentioning rules there because I assume that by stoic you mean they wouldn't scruple to mete out the unwelcome/unwanted, but please correct me if that's wrong.)
In the AW model I argue that its principles are the most explicit and most strongly emphasized rules. The text pretty much flat out states you are playing a different game if you don't follow them. Nothing can ever force anyone to play any game by the rules, but I don't agree that principles have to be weaker than rules.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
In the AW model I argue that its principles are the most explicit and most strongly emphasized rules. The text pretty much flat out states you are playing a different game if you don't follow them. Nothing can ever force anyone to play any game by the rules, but I don't agree that principles have to be weaker than rules.
I'm not sure whether I do, either. Partly due to thinking about the force of principles in AW, too! The way we follow rules can vary considerably in the absence of shared principles; that's part of what motivates connecting rule-following with principles in codes of conduct for referees. But I wanted to lay out what I understood what was said to imply. It is likely more accurate to say that rules followed in the context of principles do the work.

There's the technical point that agreement to follow a rule is never located in the rule. "Safety tools" that rule out some kinds of unwelcome/unwanted demonstrate that. A hard move for example cannot introduce unwelcome/unwanted that transgresses a safety rule.

Part of stepping into the magic circle is to pre-agree to the rules, and that opportunity for pre-agreement justifies gloves-off just so long as that is in accord with the rules.
 

I'm not sure whether I do, either. Partly due to thinking about the force of principles in AW, too! The way we follow rules can vary considerably in the absence of shared principles; that's part of what motivates connecting rule-following with principles in codes of conduct for referees. But I wanted to lay out what I understood what was said to imply. It is likely more accurate to say that rules followed in the context of principles do the work.

There's the technical point that agreement to follow a rule is never located in the rule. "Safety tools" that rule out some kinds of unwelcome/unwanted demonstrate that. A hard move for example cannot introduce unwelcome/unwanted that transgresses a safety rule.

Part of stepping into the magic circle is to pre-agree to the rules, and that opportunity for pre-agreement justifies gloves-off just so long as that is in accord with the rules.
Oh, yeah, now I agree with what you're saying, and it goes for all sorts of agreements too of course.
 

pemerton

Legend
In philosophy of law, the contrast between rules and principles is sometimes (maybe "often" would be better) understood as being between being amenable to all or nothing application (rules are like this) vs having weight but not, in themselves, being determinative (principles are like this).

An example of a rule: do not drive faster than the marked speed limit.

An example of a principle: those who create risk should bear the cost of harm that results from that risk crystallising.

Some legal requirements can be stated with the syntax of a rule - eg a person who causes harm by negligent action, to someone to whom they owe a duty of care, will be liable to compensate that harm - but may be better analysed as complexes of principle (eg the negligence "rule" combines the principle I stated just above, with other principles about remoteness, foreseeability, community and professional standards and expectations, etc).

I'm not sure what's at stake, in the context of RPG design and play, in the distinction between rules and principles. In Apocalypse World, a distinction is drawn between principles and moves. Player-side moves are particular mechanical "widgets" and processes that either affect other moves, or else mediate changes in the fiction (as per Vincent Baker's work on clouds and boxes). GM-side moves are particular patterns of fiction-introduction, that help discipline and direct the GM's introduction of fiction.

Principles, in AW, are not directly methods of, or patterns for, adding new fiction. They guide the GM in their making of moves: they play a sort-of "meta" role.

I don't see what utility there is in denying that the AW principles are not rules. They set normative standards for the GM to comply with. Sometimes they might need to be "balanced" or "weighed" against one another - eg Look through crosshairs and Be a fan of the players' characters might sometimes come into tension (suppose a NPC is very precious to a PC) - but this is not true of all of them. Make your move, but never speak its name and Make your move, but misdirect, are particularly clear examples here: there is no reason that the GM should not comply with these in every moment of play.
 

pemerton

Legend
I can (and must) appreciate that a play event is unwelcome/unwanted and be invested in procuring it, even if it is not impacting me in the role of player.
There is some tension in the notion that I am invested in procuring something that I don't want.

But setting that aside, a GM being invested in procuring the unwelcome and unwanted sounds a bit adversarial to me. Part of the point of rules is to regulate this.
 

In philosophy of law, the contrast between rules and principles is sometimes (maybe "often" would be better) understood as being between being amenable to all or nothing application (rules are like this) vs having weight but not, in themselves, being determinative (principles are like this).

An example of a rule: do not drive faster than the marked speed limit.

An example of a principle: those who create risk should bear the cost of harm that results from that risk crystallising.

Some legal requirements can be stated with the syntax of a rule - eg a person who causes harm by negligent action, to someone to whom they owe a duty of care, will be liable to compensate that harm - but may be better analysed as complexes of principle (eg the negligence "rule" combines the principle I stated just above, with other principles about remoteness, foreseeability, community and professional standards and expectations, etc).

I'm not sure what's at stake, in the context of RPG design and play, in the distinction between rules and principles. In Apocalypse World, a distinction is drawn between principles and moves. Player-side moves are particular mechanical "widgets" and processes that either affect other moves, or else mediate changes in the fiction (as per Vincent Baker's work on clouds and boxes). GM-side moves are particular patterns of fiction-introduction, that help discipline and direct the GM's introduction of fiction.

Principles, in AW, are not directly methods of, or patterns for, adding new fiction. They guide the GM in their making of moves: they play a sort-of "meta" role.

I don't see what utility there is in denying that the AW principles are not rules. They set normative standards for the GM to comply with. Sometimes they might need to be "balanced" or "weighed" against one another - eg Look through crosshairs and Be a fan of the players' characters might sometimes come into tension (suppose a NPC is very precious to a PC) - but this is not true of all of them. Make your move, but never speak its name and Make your move, but misdirect, are particularly clear examples here: there is no reason that the GM should not comply with these in every moment of play.

Here is something.

A game should tell its participants how to organize their minds. What they should be thinking about. How they should be orienting to play at each moment. How they should be engaging with all of system, premise, their fellow players, the unfolding situations/obstacles, and their responsibilities at large.

Modern design has come a long way to formalize this for GMs. However, I'm finding it lacking in terms of formalizing this for players. Some games do this better than others. Some games (even games that I love) are a bit mixed. An example of that last bit is Torchbearer. While Torchbearer does a fantastic job of formalizing procedures and organizing how people should be orienting to those procedures specifically, there are two smell sections in the books that tells players to "Good Idea Fish" (lets call it). That not engaging with the system is "the best play." I_hate_that. Its terrible advice imo. And it does this while simultaneously (or directly after) telling players to think about how they use their gear and their skills and their surroundings to defeat obstacles. It does this while it promotes all the rest of the game (describe to live including help, how important testing is, how important failing and gaining Checks are, working toward your thematic material even if it complicates your life). So Torchbearer has 99 % of its content that pushes toward "use the system cleverly because you need to for every aspect of play (for advancement, for currency management, to survive at all, for thematic heft <which also feeds back into all the latter>)...but then it has a pair of blurbs that orients players around the generalization of the best play being to not engage with system (with really...the entirety of play being an exception to this...and the text laboriously, and correctly, telling you this).

So, truth be told, the best Torchbearer play I've run is when players surmount this principle and pretty much always orient themselves to play around how can I best leverage system at each moment to generate my best lines of play and choose deftly from those.

When I think about PBtA games, there is sometimes a different issue that arises because of the way "begin and end with the fiction" is expressed. That is a great player principle. But you know what you need to be doing in the middle? Be very cognizant about how those clouds feed into boxes (moves, gear, HP/harm, etc); which then feeds back into clouds. Its not just the GM's job to be thinking about how moves trigger, how they might manifest, what a custom move might look like, how currency interacts with this particular declared action. Its for the whole table and that includes (perhaps especially) the player in question.

I can trivially say that the best players I've GMed for in PBtA games are mentally oriented to play in each moment not dissimilarly to how I am as a GM. They are thinking:

* What is the nature of this threat/obstacle/opportunity in front of me? What is it trying to do?

* Ok, I've got my character...how would this PC approach this to best surmount it or how would this threat/obstacle/opportunity cause this PC trouble that leads to further compelling play?

* Ok, I'm going to have my character do x which will trigger y move. Am I clear on prospective suite of type/kind (even if not exact) consequences? Let me talk about that exactly as I relay my cloud (fiction) to the table, then say "I guess that triggers y move, right(?)", then talk to the GM about consequence suite if I'm unclear and/or want/need to crystallize prospective fallout a bit. Ok, we've talked a little more about how clouds (fiction) feed into boxes (mechanics) which feed back into clouds (fallout/consequences within the fiction). Maybe now I ask "hey, if I loadout n, how will that help (or, better still, maybe I put forth how I think that would help)?"

* <Resolve chunk of play>


TLDR; Games shouldn't put forth a player principle (even if the rest of the system deluges you with the inverse) to either (a) avoid engaging with system or (b) not being responsible for the way clouds (fiction) relates to (boxes) which feeds into further play (either/or/both clouds and boxes).

Unless the game is basically a Freeform game exclusively, player principles should pretty much always begin with:

1) Engage with system proactively (not passively and do not try to "work around system in your play").

2) You're responsible for thinking about the fiction, the mechanics, and how the two interrelate.
 

pemerton

Legend
Unless the game is basically a Freeform game exclusively, player principles should pretty much always begin with:

1) Engage with system proactively (not passively and do not try to "work around system in your play").

2) You're responsible for thinking about the fiction, the mechanics, and how the two interrelate.
Thus does Burning Wheel set out the sacred and most holy role of the players . . . which includes express injunctions to use the mechanics, including using them to change the situation if you don't find the current one interesting enough.
 

Yeah, a lot of this meshes with stuff I've discovered in the process of developing my own game. So, at the beginning it was just essentially 4e with some obvious fixes to stuff that bugged me. However, over time I rationalized and reinforced, through noting how play could be problematic, really formalizing and reinforcing the concepts that the players rely on. So, whereas in 4e Quests are a fairly secondary mechanism that takes place within the context of adventures, in HoML there is no such concept as an 'adventure' in any formal sense, the players express Quests and pursue them, and that drives the whole game, and the rules (I claim no particular quality here as a rules author) try to reflect that. Likewise the advancement system, which is just "you get stuff that you quest for" basically. That focuses on delivering in a fictionally mediated manner a process where the players can express how they develop their character's abilities. Practices act to allow the players to reframe any check situation (assuming they have a relevant practice) in a way that complements their thematic and mechanical needs, etc.

Actually, @Manbearcat pointed out that the above really treads into neo-trad territory. I had to think about this, but it certainly opens up a series of questions about how rules/principles specifically relate to different styles of play and where the knobs are there (I don't necessarily disagree with MBC on that, I think it is at least true that HoML would support a type of neo-trad play pretty easily).
 

Remove ads

Top