Need a real basic Mass Combat system.

Otterscrubber

First Post
I'm running a 4e adventure into the underdark. The heroes are part of a special forces unit of a larger military force. As they progress into the underdark there will be some large conflicts with their army and some armies in the underdark and I'd like to come up with some simple stats for their army and the armies they will be fighting. Along their adventures they will have opportunities to affect the stats of their army by acquiring allies, special troops and magic items and to negatively affect that of the opposing army through the same methods.

However I need to come up with something in the way of numbers to have them incur some losses along the way and whatnot. I'd like to have a main stat such as army strength, which could be modified by special troops, magic as well has have some special troops which could negatively affect opposing forces; such as sappers who take away an advantage of the enemy of fortifications. I want to keep it simple but still have some flavor. Hope I can get some advice from the readers of this forum. Thanks.
 

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I haven't read it myself, but it sounds like you could use Hard Boiled Armies from One Bad Egg. It allows characters who ledad troops to allow their 'squads' or whatever to use mass-versions of the character's powers. A troupe led by a rogue would be sneaky, etc.

At least that's the impression I got from the promotional material. You should buy it and let me know it is :) I have it on my RPGNow 'wish list' right now.

~
 

Basically, scale EVERYTHING up. Then run as normal.

Another option that I like, but isn't nearly as "D&D-ish", nor as developed, is to make a custom map for Risk and then play that, pausing at certain points to run through a normal-scale combat. The normal scale combat should be plot-important, though, and the outcome of those fights should somehow affect the Risk game.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, I'd recommend OBE's stuff, too. Very good, IMO.
 
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What kinds of numbers and scale are we talking about here?

Are you looking for a full combat map of guys fighting shoulder to shoulder at normal scale or something from further back where 1" squares held entire units and you could have a couple thousand guys on the map?
 


Hehe, well, there are some old products that would do that kind of stuff for you. Chainmail was the origins of D&D and provides a complete mass combat system. TSR published Battlesystem for 2e, which is pretty much a rewrite of Chainmail with a more specifically fantastical role playing bent to it.

Essentially both systems simply amalgamate some number of troops into a figure which operates kind of like a creature does in ordinary encounter combat. Each figure usually represents 10 identical creatures. Ground scale is larger, so a square represents 10 yards instead of 5 feet. Each turn represents the actions of the figures over say 1 minute of time instead of a few seconds.

Really large unique monsters and heroes or important NPCs are individual figures. Unique creature figures are always 1 square in size, but a really huge monster might take up a 2x2 area. Figures representing 10 large or bigger creatures, like a unit of ogres would also be 2x2.

Stats are pretty easy to generate for unit figures too. They have an AC and other defenses as normal for their creature type. Same thing for attacks where monsters with special powers can have figures with some extra attack or movement advantage or something like that. Movement rates can be the same as in normal combat.

Figure actions can be generalized from standard combat actions. So a figure can move, shift, or charge and basically gets a 'move action' and a 'standard action'. Cover, concealment, etc can also work as normal. Terrain can also work as per the normal rules essentially.

Whenever the focus of action is on characters interacting then you can work that using the mass combat rules if it is say a PC attacking a unit of orcs. If it is a PC fighting an NPC or unique monster then just go to the normal battle mat and resolve it using standard 4e combat rules. If the combat goes more than say 10 rounds then the larger battle moves forward a turn. In those cases I would recommend most ordinary figures would be 'minionized' to make them simple to deal with and let the PCs have a large effect on the battle.

The final stuff you need to deal with potentially are initiative, formations, morale, and command and control. In a pretty big battle figures can be designated to form units and move and attack together. Morale is probably best dealt with as just part of the unit's hit points. Things like being attacked with CA would simply do extra damage and if a unit is reduced below its hit point morale value it isn't necessarily killed, it just becomes ineffective and tries to leave the battle. Characters can make a skill check using diplomacy, insight, bluff, or intimidate to try to 'heal' the unit back up to a point where it can fight again. That would represent inspiring the troops, gathering up fleeing deserters, etc.

As for command and control I would basically have a commander, if it is a PC, specify a general plan of battle. The DM can provide the same for the enemy. Troops will follow the plan. In absence of direct PC leadership that is about all they will do. Elite troops may exercise more initiative, so they might for example automatically set themselves a secondary objective or modify their orders when it makes sense. PC commanders can change the orders of troops when they are nearby, so the character can take charge of a critical part of the battle. Designated NPC sub commanders might also give orders depending on their ability and motivation.
 

The Hard Boiled Egg thing looks to be just what the doctor ordered. Little more work than I was intending but not by much, and very cool concepts taht are already rooted in 4e (or vice-versa not sure haha)

Thank you very much for the feedback forum folks!
 

I'd like to have a main stat such as army strength, which could be modified by special troops, magic as well has have some special troops which could negatively affect opposing forces; such as sappers who take away an advantage of the enemy of fortifications. I want to keep it simple but still have some flavor.

A few years ago I created this mini-system: True20 Strategic Warfare

It's for a totally different game, but it works as you describe -- each army has a main stat (force size) and modifiers that can be whatever the DM decides. To resolve a battle, each size makes a check (1d20 + force size + modifiers vs. DC 10 + force size + modifiers) and on a success, the opposing army loses a point of size (and for every 5 points by which the check succeeds, they lose another point). The PCs get involved primarily by doing things that add/remove modifiers from the two sides.

-- 77IM
 

Ok, so need some advice on the OBE system. I was confused as it contains stat blocks for a stack, like the halflings, but it was unclear how units of differeing sizes would play out. It has a halfing stat block, but does not seem to indicate how those stats would be altered by having a stack of 20 halflings vs 100 halflings? When using this system do you have to make each stack equal to the lowest # of them? For example in my campagin I have an army that has 5200 total troops. I was planning on breaking them up into a unit of 3000 lvl 4 infantry, 500 heavy infantry, 500 bowmen, 1000 mercenaries and 200 minotaurs.

Since the smallest group is the minotaurs do I have to make each stack into stacks of 200? Is that the way this works, by taking the lowest size unit? In that case I would have 1 stack of minotaurs and 15 stacks of lvl 4 infantry for example? 2.5 stacks of bowmen? How would I do a half stack?
 

Mass combat systems pretty much work on the assumption that each figure represents a fixed number of creatures. It is certainly possible for it to work where considerably more powerful creatures are broken down into smaller numbers per figure than weak ones, but if you take it to an extreme then the system gets VERY abstract. At which point it kind of stops making sense to game out the battle on a tabletop.

Take your example. 3000 infantry in close order would take up a frontage of at least 2 feet per man. Ranked 10 deep that means they would need a space of 600 feet wide. Even in a square formation they would be around 55 men on a side, or 100x100 feet approximately. The minotaurs on the other hand are 200 in number. Even assuming each creature takes up 5 feet of frontage, at 10 deep they are only 1/6th as wide as the infantry. If you're squares are 600x600 feet, then at best they take up such a small part of a square that the infantry could just walk past their flank.

Not only that but squares/hexes of such huge size don't really let you have much in the way of interesting terrain. A whole castle would be only a fraction of a square. Things just get really muddy and kind of break down.

I don't know the OBE system in detail, but remember, a mass combat system should have pretty simple mechanics for each figure. It isn't like 4e melee where every figure needs to be able to take multiple detailed actions, etc. So having a battlefield with 50 or 100 figures on it even should be quite easy to handle as a 3-4 game. Reducing mass combat down to 5-10 figures like in melee doesn't leave a whole lot of room for interesting tactics either. If it is going to play just like a regular 4e melee, then I'd think it would lose some of its distinctive character as a big battle.

Of course I don't know exactly what you're doing, but the numbers of creatures are pretty large that you mention, so it seems reasonable to think it is a titanic epic battle. For perspective most historical major medieval timeframe battles probably had only a few thousand men on each side, and minor battles probably rarely more than a few hundred or a thousand perhaps.
 

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