Need help finding a summoner Prestige Class

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This is in error. it requires a full round action to cast summon monster but it acts immediatly.

No, it doesn't.

Compare:

Summon Monster I
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round

and:

If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

 

[lukelightning]

The problem with Alienists is that they are actually more limited than a regular mage for summoning. Sure, you can apply the pseudonatural template, which is probably better than fiendish or celestial (I'd rather have truestrike than smite), but they can basically only summon pseudonatural animals and vermin; no elementals or other outsiders.

 

[kigmatzomat]

faster summoning: at 2nd summon spells take 1std+1move action to cast, completing @ end of action (as compared to beginning of following turn).

This is in error. it requires a full round action to cast summon monster but it acts immediatly.

As other people stated, summoning requires 1 round to cast as compared to a "full round action." I specified standard+move simply b/c some of my players forget the difference between casting time:1 round, casting time:1 full action, casting time:1 action.

The familiar benefits are not particularly worth while and the idea of multiple familiars seems a little off. The Improved Banishment is perhaps the only thing that really is very important and depending on where the character is (or where the creature is from) may or may not be of real value.

I find familiars are hideously undervalued and this introduces some relatively minor tweaks to the familiar class feature in the attempt of making it sufficiently appealing that people use it. The 1-mile share spell is one of the biggies; getting buffs and protective spells to work while the familiar is off scouting plus the Celestial/Fiendish features makes them much more able to survive.

All that and loosing out on 2 caster levels. Sorcerers wont get Summon Monster 9 till 20th level. Not worth it I'm afraid.

the Improved Augment Summoning is a waste at +1 per Summoner levels. that means a max of +5 STR/CON... as opposed to +4 with the feat.

I wrote the class for my 3.0 game and wasn't aware it had changed in 3.5. IIRC 3.0 augment summoning was a +1 hp/HD, +1 attack, +1 damage. My class would scale it to +5 hp/HD, +5 attack, +5 damage. This offset the reduction in maximum spell level since you had really beefy Summon 8s vs. regular Summon9s.

In 3.5 I'd change Improved Augment summoning to provide additional bonus to STR/CON equal to half Summoner level (+4-9 STR/CON for a +2-5 attack/damage/hp bonus).

 

[Zephyrus]

Okay,.. I appologize for MY error.. the descriptive text for the Summon Monster spells (the part about it appearing and acting immdiatly on your turn) has always been to me the creature appeared and acted right after you cast the spell instead of the round following (why else use language such as immediatly, why not it doesnt appear until the start of your next action? then again it appears I'm running into alot of wordings that seem needlessly spark debate).

I agree about Familiars as they are needlessly Undervalued. I've created my own Summoner varient Core Class where I included an improved familiar benefit as well though in my version I give them the Improved/Planner Familiar feat as a bonus feat and treat them as +2 levels better for the purpose of what familiars can be attained. this allows for a better familiar without having to go into alot of details on ways to improve them. Celestial/Fiendish versions of a familiar are Level Req. 3+ thus even at 1st level with this ability they could get the template improved version or wait to get an Imp or or Psudodragon.

Yeah, the 3.5 Augment Summoning (asside from getting Spell Focus [Conjuration] as a prereq.) became a flat +4 STR and +4 CON. This also can be said to have several other famifications as improved ability scores trickle down into numerous other things such as Fort Saves, Skill Checks, Grapple Bonus etc.. If you insist on persuing that route I'd suggest maybe that you improve the Augment Summoning Feat to +6 and then +8 at certain levels (say, 3rd or 4th, and then again like 4 levels later). That would allow that level to have a stand alone ability and spread your special abilities over the levels a bit better. This keeps it simple as well as provides nice platues of power (also keeps the ability improvements at nice even increments).

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Summoners are perhaps one of the hardest of the specialty casters to find nice classes for PC's for because in many games the players are acting as hero's and many summoner sterotypes are Demon summoning or Undead Summoning or similar and its much harder to find a good foundation for Heroic summoners (unless you figure Final Fantasy, but thats a whole can of worms I'd rather not open). This is made a little worse by many people envision summoners as Arcane but the Planer Ally spells are Divine and also require bargining (making it less useful in combat situations unless its been arranged before hand and is more open to DM whimsy as to weather the called Ally will work cheep).

As I mentioned Arcana Unearthed had some nice Varient Conjurer specialist rules to make for good Summoners but I dont think theirs much else out their if your looking for a Arcane Heroic (Good guy) summoner type.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

the descriptive text for the Summon Monster spells (the part about it appearing and acting immdiatly on your turn) has always been to me the creature appeared and acted right after you cast the spell instead of the round following (why else use language such as immediatly, why not it doesnt appear until the start of your next action? then again it appears I'm running into alot of wordings that seem needlessly spark debate).

Basically, that text means that the summoned monsters appear immediately before your next turn, and have an initiative score such that they act immediately before you (i.e., same as yours plus a Dex score tiebreaker). They don't have to appear and then roll for initiative as most creatures who come upon a combat already in progress do.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Summoners are perhaps one of the hardest of the specialty casters to find nice classes for PC's for because in many games the players are acting as hero's and many summoner sterotypes are Demon summoning or Undead Summoning or similar and its much harder to find a good foundation for Heroic summoners

The other problem about summoners is that it is balanced against creatures summoned instead of direct spell descriptions. Summon spells have a lot of flexibility to them (~12 creatures/level, choice of summoning 1 at level, d3 at level-1, or d4+1 of level-2). Trouble is summoned creatures tend to be pretty weak individually and the long casting times makes them hard to pull off in combat.

Balancing any PrC is a trick b/c too many specials and the class becomes a no-brainer, too much expense and it becomes absolutely prohibitive. These days when one of my players say "Ack, that PrC suxx0rz!" I challenge them to do a better implementation of the theme.

I think the fact that there are about a dozen summoner-themed PrCs and not one of them stands out as a balanced, useful variant indicates just how difficult it is to pull off.

 

[Jack Simth]

Sorry I forgot to clarify, he's going towards an arcane caster and I think he's leaning towards a Wizard for this one, though that Sorceror build is intriguing....

Villian in a campaign I'm running; I hand-wave a handful of things (e.g., I didn't write any Knoweledge (The Planes) into his skill set) but he is quite doable by the book. The earliest he can actually Call an outsider (rather than Summon one) is 10th; and at that point, he is missing Dismissal; at 11th, he can have the full minimal list. At 12th, he can pick up the standard Planar Binding, and at 16th can have Planar Binding, Greater (the best Core Calling short of Gate).
Be careful, though; such a Sorceror has more prep-work than a Wizard, as he has to make a NEW deal with every individual Called creature, make several rolls, and sit in place for an absolute minimum of at least 20 minutes + 2 rounds + DM fiat to do it with a reasonably high safety margin (10 minutes for Calling Diagram, 1 round for Magic Circle Against [alignment], 1 round for Dimensional Anchor, 10 minutes for Planar Binding, DM fiat time for first proposal). If the Sorceror can't make the first deal, he must wait a full 24 hours to propose another (or the same) and make another opposed Charisma check.
Also, it's strongly reccomended that you pay your Called creatures something (but not required) and take care of them (also not required), as it's possible they could be angry with you after.... and have allies... and Plane Shift capabilities....
Also, it's more bookkeeping - you need to keep track of the stats for each Binding you succeed with (what, you expect the DM to do all the work?).

Some reccomended feats: Spell Penetration & Greater Spell Penetration (Dismissal permits SR), (Greater) Spell Focus (Conjouration) (Planar Binding has a Will Negates to keep the creature from falling into the trap), and perhaps Heighten Spell later on (which is often useful for a Sorceror anyway, as it permits those lower-level spells that get neglected due purely to low save DC's to be useful again) for the same reason as the Spell Focus line.

Even at 10th, though, the Sorceror will still have enough Spells Known at lower levels to be of use without the prep-work (e.g., Fireball at 3rd, Rope Trick and Scorching Ray at 2nd...) although won't be quite as strong of a blaster as would a blaster-centric Sorceror at that level (Empowered Fireball or Lightning Boly - yummy 15d6...).

 

[beaver1024]

Sorry I forgot to clarify, he's going towards an arcane caster and I think he's leaning towards a Wizard for this one, though that Sorceror build is intriguing....

I'm sorry but the best summoners are usually divine. See druid with Greenbound Summoning.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I'm sorry but the best summoners are usually divine. See druid with Greenbound Summoning.

Whoever came up with the Greenbound Summoning template forgot to run it past anyone else in the department before letting it go to print. I don't like using the word "broken" to describe D&D mechanics but... well... I can't think of any other more suitable at the moment. Suffice to say, I think it was in a Forgotten Realms supplement. For some that might be 'nuff said'.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

PS: Alienist's are a lot of fun to roleplay (check out my Story Hour below if you're interested). Alternatively, read Sep's SH for the greatest Alienist of them all!

 

[griff_goodbeard]

Since no one has mentioned it yet, there's a 'Summoner' Prclass in Sword and Sorcerey's Relics and Rituals book that's pretty good.