Need party opinions

[SSquirrel]

Ok so I decided I'm going to run Revenge of the Giants for my wife and some of our friends and a group is in the works. I plan on running a DM PC as well, and this is what I know about our group's plans so far:

All level 12.

Rebecca - Tiefling Infernal Warlock
Ricky - Vryloka Fury Blackguard
Rachel - Some sort of Leader (not Bard, maybe Shaman)
Drew - Defender or Controller, probably Defender
Chris - Willing to fill slots, wants to try a Wizard tho, so probably Controller

Me - Currently thinking one of three options:
Gnome Cunning Bard;
Dwarf Shield Fighter;
Minotaur Charg-o-taur He's a Minotaur Fighter w/Beastblooded Minotaur PP and he has a bunch of Charge related options. With his weapon and an amazingly lucky damage roll, he could potentially crit for 100 damage on a charge, absolute minimum of 45.


So my question is, if we end up w/a Fighter, Paladin or Warden for a tank, what sort of Leader would be best for Rachel to run and should I throw in a 2nd tank or leader or a 3rd DPS? Too bad I can't get the Bard paired up w/my Minotaur, he has Unicorn's Charge to toss on the Minotaur

 

[Mengu]

My first recommendation would be, don't use a DM PC. You already have 5 players, they can cover all roles. If one is absent, you can run their PC. And it's already a somewhat easy mod, except a couple odd encounters, so it's not like they need extra help. Paragon combat already takes long enough, by adding another PC and another PC's worth of monsters, you're lengthening it even more.

For leader, most anything should work. With the warlock you have ranged striking covered, with the blackguard you have melee striking covered. Any combination of leader/defender/controller from there should be fine. Shaman (especially eagle) would certainly be good, if Rachel is so inclined.

 

[Smoke Jaguar]

I have only had problems with a DM PC. I would strongly advise against it.

 

[SSquirrel]

My first recommendation would be, don't use a DM PC. You already have 5 players, they can cover all roles. If one is absent, you can run their PC. And it's already a somewhat easy mod, except a couple odd encounters, so it's not like they need extra help. Paragon combat already takes long enough, by adding another PC and another PC's worth of monsters, you're lengthening it even more.

For leader, most anything should work. With the warlock you have ranged striking covered, with the blackguard you have melee striking covered. Any combination of leader/defender/controller from there should be fine. Shaman (especially eagle) would certainly be good, if Rachel is so inclined.

The DM PC is neither here nor there. I could have just said my name and said I would have 6 players. The mod also came out prior to MM3 I believe, so I'll be converting the monster damage to current levels. I'm not positive how the encounters will stack up after that.

I'm planning on having a character of my own for a few reasons:
1) I want to
2) Only 2 of us have actually played much 4E at all
3) I've been playing (I rarely DM) in a Dark Sun game that is at 11th right now (DM PC for a 6th character there too) and I know how well heals go when a Cleric is paired w/a Paladin (don't ask). I haven't played any of the Leader classes myself and the one who will be healing is also one of the newest to 4E.
4) If the encounters are still too easy after MM3 conversion, I can always beef them up
5) They're all my friends and don't have a problem with it

So, given that we will have 6 players and the general lineup discussed above, I'd like to stay focused on the question at hand.

As to your mention of Eagle Shaman, I thought Bear was a stronger healer than Eagle.

 

[Mengu]

If you're fine with long combats, it's not a problem. I only brought it up because it's a common complaint around here.

Bear Shaman may be a better healer, but I feel Eagle Shaman is a better leader. This is a personal peeve, but I find healing to be overrated. One leader with two basic heals and an emergency heal, plus a back up emergency heal in the party is fine for the most part as far as I'm concerned. I don't like to focus on healing any more than that. Defenders of course should focus on their resilience as much as is needed, and other characters shouldn't ignore their defenses. It's a play style thing. I don't doubt others prefer different tactics.

Having played fairly long term next to a bear shaman and a panther shaman, I found the bear shaman's abilities to be underwhelming in comparison. Panther shamans are good. The few Eagle Shamans I happened to sit at a table with rocked. Hence my observation on that front.

To complete your 6-man party, of the options you provided, I'd likely go with the dwarf fighter. You can just about never go wrong with a fighter, and you can hardly ever go wrong with a dwarf. And in general I find defenders to be an important role for tactical positioning, so prefer experienced players to play the defender.

I'd skip the bard if there is going to be another leader. And I find minotaurs to be disturbingly weak, though fighter is one of the better classes for them, as I said you can just about never go wrong with a fighter, so if I ever was going to play a minotaur, it would be a fighter. As a side note, if you prefer to play a charging fighter over the dwarf, I'd give warforged juggernaut a serious consideration.

 

[SSquirrel]

If you're fine with long combats, it's not a problem. I only brought it up because it's a common complaint around here.

I don't mind the combat lengths and I have some ideas for working on that anyway. I do see it commonly tho, I have to agree w/ya on that

Bear Shaman may be a better healer, but I feel Eagle Shaman is a better leader. This is a personal peeve, but I find healing to be overrated. One leader with two basic heals and an emergency heal, plus a back up emergency heal in the party is fine for the most part as far as I'm concerned. I don't like to focus on healing any more than that. Defenders of course should focus on their resilience as much as is needed, and other characters shouldn't ignore their defenses. It's a play style thing. I don't doubt others prefer different tactics.

*nod* I've just been used to a group w/a cleric, a pally and a wizard MCed into Shaman for extra heals, so one healer w/no backup is just very different from all my recent experiences

To complete your 6-man party, of the options you provided, I'd likely go with the dwarf fighter. You can just about never go wrong with a fighter, and you can hardly ever go wrong with a dwarf. And in general I find defenders to be an important role for tactical positioning, so prefer experienced players to play the defender.

The other person in the group who has played much 4E at all is the one who is likely going to be playing a Defender.

I'd skip the bard if there is going to be another leader. And I find minotaurs to be disturbingly weak, though fighter is one of the better classes for them, as I said you can just about never go wrong with a fighter, so if I ever was going to play a minotaur, it would be a fighter. As a side note, if you prefer to play a charging fighter over the dwarf, I'd give warforged juggernaut a serious consideration.

I actually have a Dwarf Dreadnought Fighter as a potential pure tank, but I made the Minotaur for fun and he sure seems like it. A basic melee attack w/his charge would be 1d12 (brutal 2) +2d6+11. Add another 5 if prone and another 5d12 on a crit. He would charge a lot, and that's a lot of chances for a 20. I don't know where the hide text option is, but here's that minotaur build. I'm comfortable w/either of the 2 Fighters, the Bard or a Paladin. I've always made way too many characters



====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Minotaur, Weaponmaster, Beastblooded Minotaur
Build: Great Weapon Fighter
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Inherent Bonuses
Occupation - Bounty Hunter (Learn Dwarven)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 23, CON 16, DEX 11, INT 11, WIS 15, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 11, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 8


AC: 28 Fort: 28 Ref: 20 Will: 22
HP: 97 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 24

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +17, Endurance +14, Heal +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +6, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +8, History +6, Insight +8, Intimidate +5, Nature +10, Perception +10, Religion +6, Stealth +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Minotaur Racial Power: Goring Charge
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Cleave
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter Attack 1: Spinning Sweep
Fighter Attack 1: Brute Strike
Fighter Utility 2: Who's Next?
Fighter Attack 3: Bull Charge
Fighter Attack 5: Crashing Assault
Fighter Utility 6: Battle Awareness
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Fighter Attack 9: Murderous Assault
Athletics Utility 10: Incredible Stride
Beastblooded Minotaur Attack 11: Sweeping Gore
Beastblooded Minotaur Utility 12: Thrashing Horns

FEATS
Level 1: Improved Defenses
Level 2: Greathorn
Level 4: Opportunity Gore
Level 6: Axe Expertise
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Execution axe)
Level 10: Headsman's Chop
Level 11: Bloody Gore
Level 12: Eyes in the Back of Your Head

ITEMS
Thundergod Execution axe +3 x1
Cape of the Mountebank +2 x1
Horned Helm (heroic tier) x1
Boots of the Mighty Charge (heroic tier) x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Teleporting Wyvernscale Armor +3 x1
====== End ======

 

[Riastlin]

Frankly, given that you are going to run the DMPC, and given that all of the roles are already covered, I would say that most anything would work. A couple of options not previously listed that might be worth considering though are either a) a warlord or b) a paladin as they can both help in two different roles (defender and leader). If you have any concerns about running a DMPC a taclord is particularly good as it can be used to alleviate a lot of those concerns. You are likely aware of the potential problems from what you've stated so they don't need to be reiterated, but those are two good options for flexibility in my mind.

 

[Mentat55]

I would encourage having at least 3 melee characters, maybe even 4 for a 6-person party. So if Rachel's leader is a melee type, then you are probably free to DMPC just about any class. If, however, Rachel chooses to go with a ranged leader, then your DMPC should be a melee class.

I personally think a second striker or defender is the way to go. But I subscribe to the school of "the best defense is killing everything."

 

[Herschel]

The Tiefling can step in to melee a little too with his temp HP generating self and White Lotus Riposte. If she does go Shaman, I'd be tempted to go with a Skirmishing Warlord or Assault Swordmage for the sixth PC for range or to work some as a lurker. I'd be curious which defender and controller builds get picked and go from there.

 

[Quickleaf]

So my question is, if we end up w/a Fighter, Paladin or Warden for a tank, what sort of Leader would be best for Rachel to run and should I throw in a 2nd tank or leader or a 3rd DPS?

Whoa, that's a lot of variables!

Is anyone running an essentials build or a basic attack optimized PC besides the blackguard? If so, the best leader is a Warlord hands down. They just rock with essentials classes, particularly the martial ones.
On the other hand, if the party's defender isn't a paladin (and your PC isn't a leader), then going as an all-out healer cleric would be good to compensate for the lack of secondary role leaders.

Do you have access to Dragon #373? Schwalb had a good article on party building.

As it stands your party of 5 seems balanced, a ranged striker & melée striker, a wizard, a tank, and a leader. Since the party will be facing lots of big bags of HP in the module, I'd recommend another damage-dealer. Or go really wild and make a fullblade wielding paladin with optimized damage - that way you get some healing and tanking too. Plus RP-wise it would make a nice foil to the blackguard.