Need some clarification on reach weapons for Large/Huge creatures

[irdeggman]

Thanks for saving me a 100' walk, irdeggman!

Do you have the issue cite to go with that page ref?

The last version. There are no more being issued.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think folks are a little confused.

The Sage's answer doesn't say that a Medium creature wielding a Large reach weapon has the reach of a Large creature with a Large reach weapon, or even that of a Medium creature with a Large reach weapon's reach. (What does that even mean?) He says a Medium creature with a Large reach weapon gains the benefit of reach, even though the weapon isn't "of the appropriate size."

Actually, both the racial feature Powerful Build and the feat Monkey Grip let the creature with either attribute use an oversized melee weapon as if the wielder was of appropriate size to wield that weapon- that would by necessity include the attribute of reach.

Thus, the Sage is clearly offering his opinion as to whether the reach granted by an oversized weapon is the regular reach for the creature, or if there is additional reach granted by the weapon's increased size.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Thus, the Sage is clearly offering his opinion as to whether the reach granted by an oversized weapon is the regular reach for the creature, or if there is additional reach granted by the weapon's increased size.

No. Read it again, without preconceptions.

The Sage is absolutely not saying that Large reach weapons give Large reach ... he's simply saying that Large reach weapons give reach. Those statements aren't equivalent.

The fourth paragraph in the quote from the Sage is an explanation for the third paragraph, BTW. It's not an entirely different rule. I think that may be what's confusing people.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No. Read it again, without preconceptions.

The Sage is absolutely not saying that Large reach weapons give Large reach ... he's simply saying that Large reach weapons give reach. Those statements aren't equivalent.

The fourth paragraph in the quote from the Sage is an explanation for the third paragraph, BTW. It's not an entirely different rule. I think that may be what's confusing people.

There is no preconception- Monkey Grip and Powerful Build RAW grant the use of an oversized melee weapon as if the wielder was of the appropriate size to wield the weapon (though MG has a -2Att penalty). The only question is how much reach.

Were it true that all he meant was that a PC with MG or PB got the use of reach in addition to the increased damage, he could have stopped with a single sentence about RAW.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Were it true that all he meant was that a PC with MG or PB got the use of reach in addition to the increased damage, he could have stopped with a single sentence about RAW.

What sentence would that be?

Weapons don't have reach. Characters have reach and/or use reach weapons, which extend their reach.

A Monkey Gripped Large longspear in the hands of a Medium PC gives that PC the reach he has with a longspear: 10 feet.

The reason you think there's a question about "how much reach an oversized weapon gives" is because you're confused about how reach works. The SRD is very clear: "most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach." Nothing the Sage wrote changes that.

The only thing the Sage did was clarify that a Large reach weapon -- rather than giving a Medium character no reach because it's not "of the appropriate size" -- is still treated as a reach weapon for that character. And, again, a reach weapon doubles the wielder's natural reach.

Monkey Grip and Powerful Build (and similar abilities) do nothing to change the natural reach of a character. So when one of these characters wields a Large reach weapon, it works exactly as it would for a Large character wielding it: it doubles the character's natural reach. In the case of a Medium character, to 10 feet.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What sentence would that be?

It would be something like "By their text <quote of appropriate text> MG and PB allow a PC to wield an weapon as if he were the appropriate size to do so."

If he felt that was unclear, he could add, "The use of reach, being a normal melee weapon attribute of a reach weapon, would follow from a RAW reading."

1-2 sentences. No meandering speculative paragraph about "spirit and intent."

Weapons don't have reach.

Sure they do, or it wouldn't be listed on the weapon chart as a characteristic of a weapon. Its just that 3.X has 2 slightly differently shaded versions of the word "reach" one of which applies to weapons, one of which applies to characters.

The reason you think there's a question about "how much reach an oversized weapon gives" is because you're confused about how reach works. The SRD is very clear: "most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach." Nothing the Sage wrote changes that.

I'm not confused. There are 2 valid interpretations of the phrase "most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach." The first is the one you cited, and is admittedly the majority interpretation.

The second interpretation is that reach is an inherent quality of the weapon- a description of its physical size. that was unfortunately described in reference to a character's attributes. Since all reach weapons in the basic game were 2 handed, none could be wielded by an undersized wielder at all, so the PHB's language on the matter was formulated simply and without considering that possibilty. That phrase- "most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach"- merely means that because a M reach weapon is @8-10 feet long, it will double the reach of a M creature. A L reach weapon @15-20 feet long would more than double that creature's reach, were he able to wield it...which he can't.

Until MG and PB were created.

 

[frankthedm]

The second interpretation is that reach is an inherent quality of the weapon- a description of its physical size. that was unfortunately described in reference to a character's attributes. Since all reach weapons in the basic game were 2 handed, none could be wielded by an undersized wielder at all, so the PHB's language on the matter was formulated simply and without considering that possibilty. That phrase- "most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach"- merely means that because a M reach weapon is @8-10 feet long, it will double the reach of a M creature. A L reach weapon @15-20 feet long would more than double that creature's reach, were he able to wield it...which he can't.

Until MG and PB were created.

Powerful build is not an issue here at all unless the goliath reads differently from the half giant.


Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size.The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Its still the same issue.

PB:

However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size.

(emphasis mine)

Again, if the standard interpretation is followed, this larger weapon does not give any additional reach since reach usually doubles a creature's natural reach. Reach is viewed as solely a property of creatures.

In the second interpretation, additional reach is granted because the weapon is larger, and reach is a property of creatures AND weapons.

Again, if this additional reach wasn't what the Sage was referring to, he wouldn't be talking about "spirit and intent"- under the first interpretation, it would be clear RAW.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

It would be something like "By their text <quote of appropriate text> MG and PB allow a PC to wield an weapon as if he were the appropriate size to do so."

Sure ... if all he were talking about was stuff like MG and PB.

But he's not. He's talking about any character using a too-large weapon, which by RAW -- since it's not a weapon of "appropriate size" -- doesn't allow the character to double his natural reach.

So the Sage is saying, "Yes, it's in the spirit and intent of the rules to allow your Medium character to double his reach when wielding a Large longspear, even though the RAW says 'appropriate' size. The spirit and intent of the rules is 'at least' appropriate size."

 

[irdeggman]

In the second interpretation, additional reach is granted because the weapon is larger, and reach is a property of creatures AND weapons.

First off I agree with frankthedm and Jeff Wilder. I have diffulty in seeing how you can read anything else into the Sage's response.

Everytime he mentions weapons he talks about "reach" he never mentions larger weapons without using reach. If he did you might have a case - but I think you have been inserting the preconception you had into the arguement.

Reach for a weapon has to do somewhat with its size but mostly with how it functions. Not all reach weapons are 2 handed and not all 2 handed weapons have reach (which is the next path that arguement would logically follow).

When the PHB says "most reach weapons double the wielder's normal reach" that is color text since the weapon's description itself provides the exact reach distance a medium creature with a medium sized weapon of the type provides and the specific rule over rides the general one. I need to see if the Rules Compendium has any "changes" to this though.

For example - a whip is a one handed reach weapon that provides a medium character 15 ft reach.