Need some spell effect clarifications

[-=Xar=-]

Last session we had a lot discussions about unclear formulations of spell effects, so we decided to let the wisdom of the boards guide us...

-First, with the use of a Dominate Person spell is it possible to command the dominated subject to act normally in all aspects, and even try to conceal the fact that he is dominated? Or is it clearly visible that he is under the effect of the spell?

-What happens when a person gets Confused? Does he lose his ability to make tactical decisions? Can a confused mage use a Teleport when he wants to flee the scene, or does he simply try to run away? Does he pick a spell that doesn't endanger his friends when he is forced to attack someone? If forced to attack an ally, would he use a spell he knows it will be the most usefull (say, Hold Person on a fighter), or simply blast away with his most flashy and destructive spell, like Fireball. Can a confused fighter choose to do subdual damage when attacking someone? Do decisions like this rest with the DM, or has the player still some controll over his character?

-Then, the worst of all, the Mirror Image. What is the AC of an image? Do spells that affect the character affect his images as well? Is it possible to cleave through an image? If a character is under the effects of both a Blur and MI, what do you use first when you check for a hit?

-Last, it seems logical that it is more difficult to identify what spell the enemy is casting when said person is invisible, or is using Silent or Still Spell. Still this is nowhere reflected within the rules. You can even identify a spell-like abilty, without any components at all, even before it has taken effect... seems kinda unrealistic, is there a book with rules for this or has anybody made a usefull house-rule?

Some or perhaps all these questions may have been allready answered before, but your input would still be very helpfull. Thx in advance!

 

[Scharlata]

[...]-First, with the use of a Dominate Person spell is it possible to command the dominated subject to act normally in all aspects, and even try to conceal the fact that he is dominated? Or is it clearly visible that he is under the effect of the spell?

Sense Motive (Sense enchantment, DC 15) lets someone guess if another creature is under control of a dominate person spell. The DC is 25 it's another enchantment effect. You may impose a a circumstance penalty of -2 to -5 if the dominator commands the subject to "act normally" if you see fit.

-What happens when a person gets Confused? Does he lose his ability to make tactical decisions? Can a confused mage use a Teleport when he wants to flee the scene, or does he simply try to run away? Does he pick a spell that doesn't endanger his friends when he is forced to attack someone? If forced to attack an ally, would he use a spell he knows it will be the most usefull (say, Hold Person on a fighter), or simply blast away with his most flashy and destructive spell, like Fireball. Can a confused fighter choose to do subdual damage when attacking someone? Do decisions like this rest with the DM, or has the player still some controll over his character?

I only know what we do in my campaign (where I DM) and in another (where I have the honor to play ): We obliege the confused creatures to act as fierce as they normally fight any other enemy. They know they are in danger, but don't get the whole picture because they are confused. If someone is in personal danger and would normally flee we let them if the result allows a retreat.

-Then, the worst of all, the Mirror Image. What is the AC of an image? Do spells that affect the character affect his images as well? Is it possible to cleave through an image? If a character is under the effects of both a Blur and MI, what do you use first when you check for a hit?

FAQ [3.5]: "For all intents and purposes, the figments from a foe's mirror image spell are your foes. The use of the Cleave feat is valid. All figments occupy the same square(s) as the caster of the spell."

AC is 10 + caster's size modifier + caster's Dex modifier.

Blur imposes a miss chance of 20%. Miss chances are best resolved before the attack roll is made, because the latter only counts if a miss is avoided. There are campaigns that do otherwise and are happy with it.

-Last, it seems logical that it is more difficult to identify what spell the enemy is casting when said person is invisible, or is using Silent or Still Spell. Still this is nowhere reflected within the rules. You can even identify a spell-like abilty, without any components at all, even before it has taken effect... seems kinda unrealistic, is there a book with rules for this or has anybody made a usefull house-rule?

Spellcraft lets you identify a spell being cast (DC 15 + spell level) but you must hear the spell's verbal or see the spell's somatic components. I remember a -2 penalty if you aren't able to see the spell coming online but it seems that I can't recall where I read this. You may impose the Spot's -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance if you see fit.

Rules of the Game: All about Spell-like Abilities by Skip W. tells us:
• A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components. Using a spell-like ability is a purely mental action, albeit one that requires enough concentration to provoke attacks of opportunity. It is quite possible, however, that a creature using a spell-like ability might add some gesture, word, or flourish just for dramatic effect.
• A spell-like ability cannot be used as a counterspell, and it is not subject to counterspells. A counterspell involves recognizing a spell as it is being cast, then quickly altering that same spell so as to create an opposite effect that cancels out the original spell. A spell-like ability is essentially hardwired into its user’s psyche, and its power is released mentally. The process is sufficiently different from spellcasting so it that doesn’t allow a foe to identify the spell-like ability, and a counterspell cannot interfere with the spell-like ability’s magical energy as it can with a spell.

Kind regards (and welcome to the boards)

 

[Thanee]

About Sense Motive and Dominate... don't forget, that it takes some time to use Sense Motive. It's not like you walk past someone and notice that there must be a Dominate spell in effect.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

If a character is under the effects of both a Blur and MI, what do you use first when you check for a hit?

FAQ [3.5]: "For all intents and purposes, the figments from a foe's mirror image spell are your foes. The use of the Cleave feat is valid. All figments occupy the same square(s) as the caster of the spell."

AC is 10 + caster's size modifier + caster's Dex modifier.

Blur imposes a miss chance of 20%. Miss chances are best resolved before the attack roll is made, because the latter only counts if a miss is avoided. There are campaigns that do otherwise and are happy with it.

This doesn't quite answer his question correctly. If you have both Mirror Image and Blur up, Mirror Image is resolved before the Blur. The reason for this is that the Mirror Image is not protected by the Blur spell, only the caster is.

Hence in this case, if you roll in an order, it would be:

1) Roll attack roll. If the attack roll is not high enough to hit an image, quit.

2) Roll to determine whether the caster or image is possibly hit. If an image, destroy it and quit. If the caster and the attack roll was not high enough to hit the caster, quit.

3) Roll the Blur miss chance. If you make it, quit. If not, roll damage on the caster.

You can also roll all four at the same time, D20 attack, D10 for miss chance, DX based on number of images (where X - 1 is the number of images, the other result on this die is the caster), and damage dice.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually, the Mirror Images are blurred, just like the caster.

So, there's a (x-1) / x chance that you randomly target an image, and then a 20% you miss it entirely.

Or so says the FAQ, anyway, which, in this case, at least, I'm inclined to agree with. After all, if the caster is the only one whose outline is all blurry (which causes the miss chance), why can't you immediately target him / her?

 

[UltimaGabe]

If you have both Mirror Image and Blur up, Mirror Image is resolved before the Blur. The reason for this is that the Mirror Image is not protected by the Blur spell, only the caster is.

I'd be inclined to disagree with you on this one. If that were the case, then a spellcaster would realistically be at a disadvantage when under the effects of both spells (DM: "You see five perfectly identical spellcasters occupying the same square, except that one of them is blurred." PC: "Alright. I attack the blurred one, because obviously that's the real caster, since Blur doesn't protect Mirror Images."). If the caster is all blurry, his mirror images have to be as well, or the entire illusion will be worthless. And if the images are blurry, then they are likewise difficult to hit, since that's the entire point of Concealment and the Blur spell. There isn't, in my opinion, any real reason to disallow Mirror Images from being protected by Blur while still having both effects make sense. And in a case like this, "because I said so" is quite an obviously desperated excuse.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, the Mirror Images are blurred, just like the caster.

They should be blurred as per the Mirror Image spell emulating a blurred caster. They should not gain the concealment bonus of the Blur spell since they are not the target of the Blur spell.

So, there's a (x-1) / x chance that you randomly target an image, and then a 20% you miss it entirely.

Or so says the FAQ, anyway, which, in this case, at least, I'm inclined to agree with. After all, if the caster is the only one whose outline is all blurry (which causes the miss chance), why can't you immediately target him / her?

I have no problem with the images being blurry. They should be.

I do have a problem with them gaining the concealment benefits of the Blur spell.

The reason is that the Blur spell only affects the caster as the target of the spell. It does not affect his other illusions.


The same reasoning applies to Mirror Image and Invisibility. The images should appear quasi-invisible, but they should not get the concealment bonus of Invisibility. Why?

1) They are not the target of the invisibility spell and should not get its benefits.

2) They are not attempting to avoid attacks like the caster. An invisible mirror image has no qualms about a sword swinging through it.

3) They are not truly invisible. Their appearance should be identical to that of the caster. If light is going around (through, whatever) the invisible caster from a tree behind him, you should see several mirror images of the tree moving around. It does not matter what light is coming off the caster and for what reason, the Mirror Image spell should try to emulate that image. It is not doing this if the Mirror Image images are also "truly invisible".

In other words, if there is a tree (t) behind the Invisible Mirror Imaged caster (who looks like T), an NPC (N) viewing him should see something like (top down view):

.t.
...
...
.TT
T.T
...
.N.


I think the Sage dropped the ball on this one completely. It's magic. It's ok for the images to be blurry without gaining the benefit of concealment from magic that only affects the caster. Ditto for Displacement. Ditto for Invisibility.

It's also lame for him to add a new rule in via the FAQ. Not everybody reads the FAQ. If he had wanted it to work this way, the Mirror Image spell itself should state so or minimally, it should be in the errata. It's not.


Btw, there should be mundane ways to get around Mirror Image anyway. For example, the real caster who has a torch has smoke rising up from it. The smoke rising from the images should stop at some point within 5 feet. The smoke rising from the real caster should not stop.

Or, the caster standing in water should have the water distort the images of his legs normally (like water does). The Mirror Image spell should have difficulty with this due to the fact that every different direction of viewing around the caster should have a different degree and angle of distortion, hence, the spell could not just put out one image and it would work for everyone around the caster.

But, that is a different topic.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd be inclined to disagree with you on this one. If that were the case, then a spellcaster would realistically be at a disadvantage when under the effects of both spells (DM: "You see five perfectly identical spellcasters occupying the same square, except that one of them is blurred." PC: "Alright. I attack the blurred one, because obviously that's the real caster, since Blur doesn't protect Mirror Images."). If the caster is all blurry, his mirror images have to be as well, or the entire illusion will be worthless. And if the images are blurry, then they are likewise difficult to hit, since that's the entire point of Concealment and the Blur spell. There isn't, in my opinion, any real reason to disallow Mirror Images from being protected by Blur while still having both effects make sense. And in a case like this, "because I said so" is quite an obviously desperated excuse.

The reason is because they are not the target of the Blur spell.

The caster is.

What is wrong with them being blurry and not gaining concealment?

If they are blurring over a 2 foot radius instead of a 1 foot radius, maybe they are easier to hit. Who knows? It's magic.


If you follow the rules as written, a Blur spell gives concealment. That allows you to make a Hide roll. Does it make any sense whatsoever that being blurred would give you a chance to hide, even though you are in plain sight? No. But, that is still the rule.

What is so different about this?

The rule is that Blur targets the caster. Period. It does not target his Mirror Image images.

They do not gain the benefits of any of his other magic (armor bonuses, deflection bonuses, etc.). Why should they gain the benefit of this magic?

 

[Caliban]

Please expand on this "quasi-invisibility" that you mentioned. How can you be invisible, yet not benefit from the effects of invisibility?

How can you be blurred, yet not benefit from the effects of being blurred?

Mirror Image is a Personal spell, just like blur and invisibilty.

They are all in effect on upon the casters person, and Mirror Image creates perfect duplicates of the caster (as far as appearance goes). If he's blurred, they are blurred.

 

[KarinsDad]

Please expand on this "quasi-invisibility" that you mentioned. How can you be invisible, yet not benefit from the effects of invisibility?

Look at the diagram I supplied.

You are invisible. Your Mirror Images should be images of you, they should not be invisible.

They should be images of you as YOU appear. You stated so yourself "Mirror Image creates perfect duplicates of the caster (as far as appearance goes)".

So, if you look like the wall behind you, the images should look like the wall behind you (and if the wall behind you is polka dotted, you should see polka dotted images floating around because they are moving relative to the wall and you are not).

PS. What is wrong with two illusion spells conflicting and resulting in unusual results?

How can you be blurred, yet not benefit from the effects of being blurred?

Mirror Image is a Personal spell, just like blur and invisibilty.

They are all in effect on upon the casters person, and Mirror Image creates perfect duplicates of the caster (as far as appearance goes). If he's blurred, they are blurred.

They are blurred, but is there a game concealment rule called "Blurred"?

No.

There is a spell called Blur.

It targets the caster. It does not target his Mirror Image images.


If there was a concealment rule called "Blurred" and the Blur spell gave you the concealment of being "Blurred" and anything that had the appearance of being "Blurred" got that concealment bonus, then I might agree with the Sage. There is no such rule.

The blurring effect of the Blur spell is flavor text. The concealment bonus is the mechanic rule benefit of the spell and it targets the creature touched and the creature touched only.

Not his illusions.

You of all people should agree that target means target and not additional targets.

PS. How's it going Caliban? We haven't talked in years.