Needlefang Drake Swarm Too Powerful?

[VirtualWizard]

Has anyone run or played through a combat with one or more needlefang drake swarms? These swarms seem a bit too powerful for their level (2nd).

Just like all swarms, they have a swarm aura damage. However, they can also knock you down (+7 vs. Fortitude) and savage you all in the same round (adding +1d10 of damage if you are prone). None of the other swarms in the Monster Manual have a knock down ability. On top of that, needlefang drake swarms have good defenses and only take 1/2 damage from most attacks (standard for swarms). In essence, giving them twice their normal hit points.

Thus far in all the combats I've run, the needlefang drake swarms have come out on top. However, I've only run battles for 1st and 2nd level characters (with a wizard involved in all battles).

What do you think?

 

[Gort]

Yes. This was an issue in my last adventure where my players ended up running away from a bunch of these drake swarms. Their damage is really high, they can virtually immobilise characters by hitting them, and they effectively get to attack twice every round (move next to someone, attack them, then they get attacked at the start of their turn).

I ended up simply removing their aura ability.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

Yes, the needlefang drake is strictly better than the rat swarm, which is theoretically the same level.

 

[Mengu]

Yes they are too powerful. 5 of these make a level 2 encounter. Which supposedly falls in the standard encounter bracket against a 1st level party, but it's a tpk waiting to happen (I did some tests with these earlier when they were previewed, and that's exactly what happened). If the party realizes what's happenning, they should run.

I would not use more than 1 in a level 1 or 2 encounter. In a level 3 encounter, I might use 2. Also the abscense of a Controller makes these swarms particularly difficult to deal with, so party composition is something to watch out for.

 

[keterys]

I forget the exact math I did a bit ago, but they're reasonably balanced for level 4 to 6 monsters if memory serves. I think I had to get into the gnoll/orc range before I found monsters that could remotely compare.

Personally I suggest changing their damage to 1d6+2 (2d6+2 when prone) and possibly changing their prone attack to a standard action.

 

[bganon]

I agree, I think they're obviously overpowered. I sent a single swarm against a party of three level 1 characters (with no wizard or cleric, admittedly) and they barely scraped though it. Once adjacent to the players the swarm can just sit there and use Pull Down three times in a row, and then shred everybody with the aura.

Keterys's suggestion on the damage is a good idea as they're supposed to be soldiers, not brutes. I might not change the pull down to a standard, but put a 1/round restriction on it, and maybe even knock it down to +6 rather than +7. But primarily I think just toning down their damage output will make them much more manageable but still keep the "scary" aspect.

 

[frankthedm]

I forget the exact math I did a bit ago, but they're reasonably balanced for level 4 to 6 monsters if memory serves. I think I had to get into the gnoll/orc range before I found monsters that could remotely compare.

Personally I suggest changing their damage to 1d6+2 (2d6+2 when prone) and possibly changing their prone attack to a standard action.

I think changing their damage to 1d6+4 (+1d6 when prone) seems good enough for a soldier based swarm.

And how about that guard drake? At level 2, 1d10+9 damage as long as an ally is within 2 squares. A flat 6 point damage bonus ought to have a more stringent prerequirement!

 

[Mentat55]

I think changing their damage to 1d6+4 (+1d6 when prone) seems good enough for a soldier based swarm.

And how about that guard drake? At level 2, 1d10+9 damage as long as an ally is within 2 squares. A flat 6 point damage bonus ought to have a more stringent prerequirement!

Currently playing Keep on the Shadowfell on RPOL. We're in the midst of a battle that included two guard drakes, and MAN, they hit really hard. Our party of 5 (dragonborn paladin, halfling cleric, eladrin wizard, human archery ranger, and my eladrin tactical warlord) is now down to three PCs. We lost the cleric to a critcal from a drake -- from alive to dead in a single hit. And the paladin bled out, because I left him dying when I went to rescue the wizard, expecting the cleric to stabilize on his next action

This TPK about to happen probably has more to do with our poor tactics -- I used my inspiring word up too quickly, we didn't focus our fire, one of our players wasted a daily on a minion before he knew they were minions -- but those guard drakes are ferocious.

 

[mlund]

Guard Drakes and Drake Swarms are some of the most powerful level 2 monsters in the Monster Manual. They are strong soldier / brute type monsters that can deal a lot of damage under fortunate circumstances. They are also relatively unintelligent beasts and completely manageable by a balanced party.

Specifically addressing the Drake Swarm - they are designed to be extremely vulnerable to both Defenders and Controllers. Defenders lock up the swarm neatly with their Challenges, making their Aura attacks a liability (provoking damage from Combat Superiority or Divine Challenge). They also have solid Fortitude defenses and high AC, making Pull Down + Bite connecting in concert less likely. Heck, Dwarves on the front-line get a saving-throw to resist the Pull Down even if it hits.

Meanwhile Controllers have abilities that deal double damage against Swarms. If the enemy happens to consist of multiple Drake Swarms they tend to bunch up on the front lines and get fried.

Leaders and Strikers have the worst time with Drake Swarms. They get hit constantly, take a lot of damage, and often have no area effect damage to apply. On the up side, almost all the guideline / sample encounters only include 1-2 of a particular non-minion monster - almost as if the Designers wanted to convey that running 5x of the same exact monster as an Encounter might be undesirable.

- Marty Lund

 

[keterys]

(provoking damage from Combat Superiority or Divine Challenge)

Only once per round, however.

The real trick about needlefang drake swarms is that they can actually take down PCs _before they even get to act_. Umm, it moves up to you and knocks you down and then attacks. Your turn. Oh, it attacks again... you're down/dead. Even if it misses then: Okay, you're prone and its in your square - you can't move far enough away that it won't tear you apart on its (or yours) next action without provoking.

Controllers get to do extra damage, it's true, but if they do, then they're identifying themselves as a threat to the swarm who may well just go kill them.