Needlefang Drake Swarm Too Powerful?

[VirtualWizard]

I forget the exact math I did a bit ago, but they're reasonably balanced for level 4 to 6 monsters if memory serves. I think I had to get into the gnoll/orc range before I found monsters that could remotely compare.

Personally I suggest changing their damage to 1d6+2 (2d6+2 when prone) and possibly changing their prone attack to a standard action.

Good suggestion. I thought about something similar.

Another item for consideration would be to eliminate the extra damage for being prone. With their knock down ability, I think that needlefangs fulfill their soldier role and don't need the extra damage.

 

[rushlight]

Only once per round, however.

The real trick about needlefang drake swarms is that they can actually take down PCs _before they even get to act_. Umm, it moves up to you and knocks you down and then attacks. Your turn. Oh, it attacks again... you're down/dead. Even if it misses then: Okay, you're prone and its in your square - you can't move far enough away that it won't tear you apart on its (or yours) next action without provoking.

Controllers get to do extra damage, it's true, but if they do, then they're identifying themselves as a threat to the swarm who may well just go kill them.

First, you can take two Move actions - one to stand up, and another to leave the Aura. You could even add in an AP for a third move, or an attack that round. Second, as INT 2 creatures, they aren't likely to coordinate and pick out the wizard like that. They'll fight the closest thing, or perhaps whatever hit it last round as long as it's in melee range. If nothing's in melee range, it'll head to the closest enemy by the most direct route. If the wizard is hiding behind someone, he should be safe for a while. If your drakes are bypassing closer targets and executing higher-level tactics to find the controller, then your drakes have been promoted to INT 6 or so, and aren't level 2 material anymore.

 

[mlund]

Only once per round, however.

The Needlefang Drake Swarm's got all of 38 hit points, so 5-7 extra damage a round represents a hefty chunk of its HP.

The real trick about needlefang drake swarms is that they can actually take down PCs _before they even get to act_. Umm, it moves up to you and knocks you down and then attacks. Your turn. Oh, it attacks again... you're down/dead. Even if it misses then: Okay, you're prone and its in your square - you can't move far enough away that it won't tear you apart on its (or yours) next action without provoking.

Yes, chain hits drop level 1 characters very quickly. It'll do an average of 30 damage if it hits with every single attack, dropping almost any character who isn't Level 2, a Defender, or enjoying the Toughness feat.

If it misses any of those attacks it doesn't drop anyone. Furthermore, a Leader gets to act before the initial victim, the victim in question likely will not drop either. A gang of multiple swarms piling on one character though? That's probably not going to end well for the victim.

Controllers get to do extra damage, it's true, but if they do, then they're identifying themselves as a threat to the swarm who may well just go kill them.

If you play Needlefang Drake Swarms any smarter than their collective intellegence of 2 suggests they are going to be a huge problem. Considering they don't understand languages, let alone spell-casting, making the connection from "guy making weird noises over there" to "gout of flame appearing up to 10 squares away from that guy to hit me," seems a bit out of their league. I could see obvious projectile attacks and maybe close blast / close burst drawing attention, but not Scorching Burst, Cloud of Daggers, or a Conjuration like Flaming Sphere.

If they start meta-gaming their resistance to Melee and Ranged Attacks and forging through multiple AO's just to get adjacent to 3+ PCs are once they are a much higher-grade threat than initially detailed in the Monster Manual, IMO.

I also think intentionally concentrated fire - multiple Swarms focusing all their attacks on 1 PC to reduce enemy firepower as quickly as possible - is probably also beyond the scope of their tactics.

That said, yeah, the Needlefang Drake Swarm is a whole lot of damage potential in a level 2 monster. It is really a monster against whom the much-maligned Wizard and Dwarf Fighter can really shine.

- Marty Lund

 

[keterys]

First, you can take two Move actions - one to stand up, and another to leave the Aura.

That would be why I said 'without provoking'. You can indeed take a second move action to move away, giving it yet another chance to attack.

Second, as INT 2 creatures, they aren't likely to coordinate and pick out the wizard like that.

It's entirely possible it may not be obvious that the wizard is the source of their problems, absolutely, but it's just as likely that it is and you're doing a disservice to the entire animal kingdom if you think that hunting animals have no ability to react to situations due to a low intelligence score.

They're not skeletons reanimated with no brains - there are actual tactics that people base off of the hunting skills and instincts of animals.

They'll fight the closest thing, or perhaps whatever hit it last round as long as it's in melee range.

Or whatever appears to be the weakest / most fragile target. That's pretty standard hunting technique. An armor covered foe with a large weapon is probably their last preferred target from a hunting standpoint.

If the wizard is hiding behind someone, he should be ...

... their very first instinctive target, if they're attacking from ambush. Which is not necessarily the case, but wild creatures ambushing is not an atypical situation and can quickly result in death or even TPK on a low level party due to how off balance needlefangs are.

If your drakes are bypassing closer targets and executing higher-level tactics to find the controller, then your drakes have been promoted to INT 6 or so, and aren't level 2 material anymore.

Even drakes attacking stupidly can still easily TPK enemies if they get a chance to act first - it's very trivial for two of them to move up into a frontline and take out both a leader and defender standing next to each other before they act between the 3 combined attacks.

Drakes can be perfectly decent creatures, they're just not level 2 as designed. They do far too much damage for their accuracy, role, defenses, and special abilities. They're easily on par with 4th level creatures and there are 6th level creatures that will often be less effective.

 

[ulrikbb]

Needlefang Drake Swarms are powerful. I gave my level 1 party an encounter consisting of 2x Needlefang Drake Swarms a Goblin Hexer, and a Rockslide, and they almost died. The Hexer kept blinding them, while the swarms pulled them down and damaged them quite a lot almost every round. It was a tough going, as the wizard, being the only one who could damage them properly, hardly landed a spell at all at them.

 

[scholz]

Two swarms did a number on my small 1st level party: Warlord, Warlock, Paladin, Cleric. The party won, but it was a long hard fight with both the Paladin and Cleric almost going down.
I originally intended to add in a couple of Guard Drakes, but decided against it. Good thing too, it would have been a TPK. A Wizard would have made that a much easier fight, but the close quarters of the fight would have still made it tricky.

 

[blargney the second]

We just fought two of these beasties as part of an encounter tonight. They probably would have been nasty if we hadn't used movement-inducing powers that let us get them off allies before the aura damage came into play.

 

[Mad Hamish]

That would be why I said 'without provoking'. You can indeed take a second move action to move away, giving it yet another chance to attack.

That's what shifting is for, and some classes can attack and then shift or shift & then attack.

 

[Nebulous]

And how about that guard drake? At level 2, 1d10+9 damage as long as an ally is within 2 squares. A flat 6 point damage bonus ought to have a more stringent prerequirement!

This is also coming up soon in our KotS campaign. I blinked a few times when i saw that damage capacity. The players will balk when they get hit like that, and it does seem somewhat unfair. I'll tone it down.

 

[Stalker0]

This is also coming up soon in our KotS campaign. I blinked a few times when i saw that damage capacity. The players will balk when they get hit like that, and it does seem somewhat unfair. I'll tone it down.

The players in our group have gone up against them a few times. We did alright, but people definitely raised an eyebrow at that damage.