Negative LA race?

[A Powerful Necromanc]

I'm sorry to necro such an old thread, but I do have something to contribute.

In order to have a negative level adjustment of -2 (I never tried for -1) go for THIS level of "

Name: Gnoblar

Stat modifiers
Strength -6
Dexterity +4
Constitution +2
Intelligence -6
Wisdom -6
Charisma -4
(Optional for Book of Erotic Fantasy users) Appearance -4

misc. racial adjustments
+2 fortitude saves vs disease
Darkvision 30ft
+1 reflex saves
Special: A gnoblar with both an intelligence and wisdom under four must make a will save (DC 15) the second time they eat meat, and every other time thereafter per week or fall into a homocidal frenzy. They gain effects of a barbarian rage, but must attack all beings within a 30 ft radius until killed or incapacitated. The DC raises by 1 every instance of eating meat after the second.
Size: Tiny
Must take one flaw (unearthed arcana) without receiving a bonus feat from doing so. This flaw must be from this list:
-pathetic (dexterity) -2 dexterity
-frail -1 HP / HD
-Shaky -2 ranged attack rolls.

Level adjustment: -2
Favoured class: Commoner.

Notes:
1. Since it's tiny sized, a gnoblar uses weapons one step down in size from small sized weaponry. They can never use shurikens, for example, because they would deal less than 1 damage per use.

2. They are goblinoids

3. Since they have an effective reach of zero they never threaten space, and thus, can never perform an attack of opportunity.

 

[Wycen]

Kobolds certainly get my mind thinking they are the nearest thing to being a -1 level adjustment.

 

[A Powerful Necromanc]

I've always used a "range" for what a LA 0 race might look like.

The worst LA 0 base race would be half-orc (with nary an ability to its name, not all that impressive stats), the strongest would be dwarf (with enough abilities to choke a moose). I've even had players propose that dwarf be given an LA of +1.


And, presenting, fair "kobold" stats!

• -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity

• Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.

• A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet.

• Darkvision out to 60 feet.

• Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +4 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks.

• +4 to all saving throws vs traps.

• +2 natural armor bonus.

• Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity.

• Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon.

• Favored Class: Sorcerer.

• Level adjustment +0.

• Level adjustment (classes with +1/level BAB, if they consist of at least half of all character levels): -1.

Just to compare with those freaking' dwarves, man...

 

[Jack Simth]

A negative LA race is a fairly bad idea. Either it'll be so bad nobody will take it, or it'll be exploitable, and a reasonably simple class combination will end up making it better than the standard races within a particular level window due to the extra hit die and associated class features.

Something slightly more reasonable idea would be a negative LA template with a catch: Total LA cannot be below X (where X is some number, 0 or above). That is, at best, it can be used to mitigate another race's LA. E.g., something like...

The Least Fit template
Abilities: As base creature -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha.
Special Attacks, special qualities: For anything dependant on hit dice, caster level, or anything else that progresses with character level is concerned, a Least Fit creature is considered to have one less hit die/level/caster level than normal (e.g., a Least Fit Drow Fighter-10 has the same SR as a normal Drow Fighter-9)
LA: As base creature -1, minimum +0

 

[tarani1]

I'm sorry to necro such an old thread, but I do have something to contribute.

In order to have a negative level adjustment of -2 (I never tried for -1) go for THIS level of "

Name: Gnoblar

Stat modifiers
Strength -6
Dexterity +4
Constitution +2
Intelligence -6
Wisdom -6
Charisma -4
(Optional for Book of Erotic Fantasy users) Appearance -4

misc. racial adjustments
+2 fortitude saves vs disease
Darkvision 30ft
+1 reflex saves
Special: A gnoblar with both an intelligence and wisdom under four must make a will save (DC 15) the second time they eat meat, and every other time thereafter per week or fall into a homocidal frenzy. They gain effects of a barbarian rage, but must attack all beings within a 30 ft radius until killed or incapacitated. The DC raises by 1 every instance of eating meat after the second.
Size: Tiny
Must take one flaw (unearthed arcana) without receiving a bonus feat from doing so.
Level adjustment: -2
Favoured class: Commoner.

Notes:
1. Since it's tiny sized, a gnoblar uses weapons one step down in size from small sized weaponry. They can never use shurikens, for example, because they would deal less than 1 damage per use.

2. They are goblinoids

3. Since they have an effective reach of zero they never threaten space, and thus, can never perform an attack of opportunity.

thats a nice class... for a spellcaster it is not impossible to do good dmg without allowing saves... beside it is only one less the save gets as sorc... and if you make it a rouge like sorc tiny is something thats good not bad... too many good things here to give -1 lvl adj... rather it should be on -1 or +0

 

[A Powerful Necromanc]

It really does have zero redeeming traits. For a fair comparison, build this character as any class you want (using the only balanced method, point buy: 28 points) and compare to a level 3 human of the same class.

In order for this character to ever make a "good" sorcerer you have to dump at least 16 pts into charisma. That is, unless you are apathetic about ever getting 9th level spells.

The dexterity and constitution, although "nice" alongside the tiny-size AC bonus comes with its own downside. Almost no equipment, or items found will be sized for you. Also, any items bought from a vendor will cost (If I recall correctly) twice as much. Oh, and in order to melee attack anyone you need to enter their square (provoking an attack of opportunity while doing so).

But, lo, the suckage isn't over yet. It's obligatory to dump at least one or two points into both intelligence AND wisdom. Plus a gnoblar spellcaster will never see bonus skill points per level. Excepting, of course, wizard gnoblars. But that's just plain silly given that their highest starting intelligence will be 12, and they will never see an eighth level spell; let alone a ninth.

FORGET about ever having bonus spells. Also, a gnoblar can never qualify for the "university" background feat (requirement: 13 intelligence). The one-flaw used up leaves you only open for a second flaw (the flaw used up balances out the "free feat", the low LOW intelligence counters the free skills for having more hit dice).

I also considered giving them a random chance for horrible scaring (even lower appearance), mental problems due to enviroment growing up (more charisma penalties), etc. But decided that such a thing is way too far.

Using the "all 10's comparison" someone put forward earlier...

Gnoblar
Str: 4
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 4
Wis: 4
Cha: 6
App: 6

Human
All: 10

Some things I forgot.

The obligitary flaw must be chosen from this list (For the full list of potential character flaws, please consult the unearthed arcana book):
-pathetic (dexterity) -2 dexterity
-frail -1 HP / HD
-Shaky -2 ranged attack rolls.
[This has been added to previous post. Sorry for the oversight]

Since when did three "questionable" abilities (30 foot Darkvision, feh), +1 reflex saves and a small save against disease really overwhelm stats that, in almost every aspect, make the character unplayable?

The only real reason to play such a character is RP oriented. A power gamer would more-likely-than-not have more luck playing a dwarf, elf or the master race.

 

[Jack Simth]

It really does have zero redeeming traits. For a fair comparison, build this character as any class you want (using the only balanced method, point buy: 28 points) and compare to a level 3 human of the same class.

Actually, it makes for a very stealth rogue, and a reasonably durable one to boot - +4 Racial Dex, +2 racial Con, +8 to Hide from being Tiny, and +2 to-hit and AC from being Tiny. Basically, they've got +10 (+8 size, +2 Dex) to Hide over a standard Rogue... and they've got two more hit dice to play around with, so the skill cap is two points higher. Granted, he'll be a bit slim on the skill points without a pretty hefty investment in Intelligence, but otherwise? Oh yes, that could make a VERY nice specialized rogue.

The limitation of having to enter someone's square to hit them is overcome by ranged weapons (to which they get a decent bonus - +2 Size, +2 Dex) and Reach weapons (to which they don't get as much of a bonus... unless they take Weapon Finess).

 

[A Powerful Necromanc]

Yes, but with a "reach" weapon they'll have five-foot-reach. Or, just get grappled.

Also, without a reach weapon at their disposal... They can't sneak attack in combat, because they don't threaten squares and thus don't flank. How would you like your 1d6 reach weapon?

Studded leather armour: 50 gold
Glaive: 16 gold

Realizing that for the sixteen points pumped into strength you still can't deal damage reliably: Priceless.

Also, you can't finesse most weapons with reach besides the whip. And the only reach weapon you'd even be proficient with is the longspear. Which would, on a gnoblar, deal 1d4 damage.

Weapon finesse clearly states, "with a light weapon, rapier, whip or spiked chain". A whip, on a gnoblar rogue would do 1 + 2d6 + strength penalty nonlethal damage without reach. That is, on a sneak attack. Non-sneak attack: 1 nonlethal damage. Also, you used up both feats you start with for this.

Or you could just be a medium-sized melee character, with a greatsword and deal 2d6+ strength and a half lethal every round.

The only weapon worth while on such a rogue would be a heavy crossbow. This would deal 3d6 damage on a sneak attack. 1d6 otherwise. And, believe me, you'll see the sans sneak attack damage regularily. (Coincidentally, a d6 is pretty much the best damage dice on a weapon a gnoblar could hope for)

Heavy crossbow: 100 gold
Leather armour: 20 gold
Which is five gold shy from the average amount you should expect to have on a rogue. So much for important thieving tools...

All you've managed to do is prove that this character might, in some miniscule extent, be playable. Among the three choices you have for obligatory flaws all of them harm any build this character might do. Pathetic dexterity reduces your dexterity bonus down to 20 max (and in a sense cancels out the additional +1 attack bonus for being tiny), shakey makes you less accurate with ranged attacks, and frail? At level one, frail equates to -3 HP.

 

[Jack Simth]

You're forgetting something:
You gave him a -2 LA.

So that's a 3rd level Gnoblar Rogue vs. a standard 1st level Human Rogue.

The Gnoblar's got more HP (pretty much any way you slice it - even taking Frail), +2 BAB, +2 Size to attack and (with a Light Crossbow) +2 Dex to attack, an additional 1d6 sneak attack, and is tied for feats with the human (1st and 3rd for the Gnoblar, 1st and human bonus for the human). Granted, sneak-attack immune stuff bites (hard) for this build, but it's very viable, and ends up with enough Hide bonuses that if it focuses on that it can fairly reasonably expect to be effectively invisible (capable of Sniping effectively) in terrain that permits hiding.

Yes, the Gnoblar Rogue has less skill points to play around with than the human rogue. Hence why I called him a good Specialist Rogue. But you can break the race this way - by playing to it's strengths.

 

[A Powerful Necromanc]

Which still isn't a valid point; you can break ANY base race by playing to its strength.

This one just happens to have far less strengths than, say, the master race.

When you speak of equal number of feats, don't forget; the gnoblar took a flaw without a feat. Which, according to the source the flaws are from, would've given it a free feat anyways.

The human is free to take two flaws of their choice (some of them VERY tempting for a rogue) and thus, wind up with four feats at level 1. (One for being level 1, one for each flaw, one for human). The very best the gnoblar can hope for is three (one for an additional flaw). Heck, being a goblinoid (along with having horrible mental stats) means the gnoblar doesn't qualify for some of the neater background feats - most of which require you be dwarven or elven.

Flawed, but it has potential in very few ways.

Most people just wouldn't bother.