Nentir Vale Coming to Dungeons and Dragons

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hey. At least you keep getting XP from me for responding politely to someone trying to argue* you out having your opinion.

And from me!

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Okay… Ravenloft. >snip<

I admit to knowing almost nothing about the Ravenloft setting, but enjoyed the 1e adventure and find that CoS is a fine update. So that the mists are there and not here to me just reflects the old module version, not an update of the setting.
But I can totally see that changing the background etc for the main protagonists are as bad as Mearl's changes to the Dawn War.

 

[Charlaquin]

Us fans in general are always quick to shout something willl be ruined… forever!

Trying to talk you off the ledge and not let you make my mistakes?

I used to leave sleep over this. But it wasn’t worth it. Life is just too short.

Telling fans of the “new” Ravenloft that they're doing it wrong and they like a bastardized version of the setting would just be pure gatekeeping.

That’s what this has all been about? Dude, please do me and everyone else reading the thread a favor and stop projecting your own baggage about setting re-writes on to me. You are significantly over estimating the degree to which I care about this. I have mixed feelings about the stream because I like the idea of a streaming game set in Nentir Vale but I don’t like Mike Mearls’s take on the setting. That’s all. “The setting is ruined forever” may be a pet peeve of yours, but it’s not something I have ever said, nor is it something I believe, and having words put in my mouth is a pet peeve of mine (it’s the one thing that makes me lose my cool in conversations like this, and it’s gotten me on like six people’s block lists). So please, just stop projecting your feelings about Ravenloft on to me, and allow me to express my own feelings about Nentir Vale in peace.

 

[Jester David]

I admit to knowing almost nothing about the Ravenloft setting, but enjoyed the 1e adventure and find that CoS is a fine update. So that the mists are there and not here to me just reflects the old module version, not an update of the setting.
But I can totally see that changing the background etc for the main protagonists are as bad as Mearl's changes to the Dawn War.

It bugged the eff out of me initially.

Basically, in the setting, Strahd expelled a tribe of invaders (the Tergs) from Barovia, spending his entire youth fighting to free his homeland. He succeeds and sees his brothers fiancée, falls in love, and strikes a pact with ambiguous “Death”. He wasn’t evil until then, but had a choice and fell to darkness out of possessive toxic “lovel.

In CoS, Strahd waged wars of conquest and took over the land that became Barovia, and built Castle Ravenloft himself. He was already evil, having tortured and killed an elite order of paladin knights and then silver dragon patron. Then made a deal with the vestiges of dead gods for power. Only after that he met Tatyana. There’s no tragedy in that story. No fall from grace.

As far as the Mists go, there are a number of different domains/ kingdoms, with the Mists surrounding the entire continent, not just Barovia.
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/PortraitHall/JesterMaps/Jester_maps_gallery.html

But, as you say, lots of people like the original adventure and not the setting. And lots of people dug this adaptation. So long as someone is happy, it’s a positive thing and good for the game. And the people who are fans of the original adventure are likely much, much more common and numerous than fans of the setting.

 

[Jester David]

That’s what this has all been about? Dude, please do me and everyone else reading the thread a favor and stop projecting your own baggage about setting re-writes on to me. You are significantly over estimating the degree to which I care about this. I have mixed feelings about the stream because I like the idea of a streaming game set in Nentir Vale but I don’t like Mike Mearls’s take on the setting. That’s all. “The setting is ruined forever” may be a pet peeve of yours, but it’s not something I have ever said, nor is it something I believe, and having words put in my mouth is a pet peeve of mine (it’s the one thing that makes me lose my cool in conversations like this, and it’s gotten me on like six people’s block lists). So please, just stop projecting your feelings about Ravenloft on to me, and allow me to express my own feelings about Nentir Vale in peace.

Okay, here's the thing. The biggest problem to the health, growth, and prosperity of geeky communities and general and D&D communities in specific is toxic fandom and the related gatekeeping.

As I discuss above, it's something I'm no stranger to and something I've wrestled with myself.
At first I was just curious about the problem with customising a setting that is, basically, a Lego set of a setting. But then there were these comments:

Sure, but that doesn’t mean I have to like the particular way Mearls is customizing it. Of course, when it was just his home game, it didn’t really matter to me that he was customizing it in ways I didn’t care for. But now, it’s going beyond just his home game and becoming performance art which will be a lot of people’s first introduction to the setting. Hence my mixed feelings, I like that it will be introducing new people to the Nentir Vale, I dislike the interpretation of the setting it will be introducing them to.

Ever had a video game series that you really loved, that was kind of obscure, but just fit your tastes perfectly? Then a sequel came out, that wasn’t as good, but was way more popular? Sure, you’re happy that the series is finally getting the recognition it deserved, but you know that most of the newcomers aren’t going to go back and play the originals. And you can’t even blame them - those older entries are amazing, but the graphics have aged really poorly, and the later games have a lot of quality of life improvements that would make the old ones feel really inconvenient to anyone who got into the series with the new games. So, while you’re glad people are getting into the series, it kinda sucks knowing that this newest entry will probably be seen as the definitive example of the series, when to you, it’s just the inferior casual-friendly version.

That’s kinda how this feels. I love Nentir Vale. I love that it might finally get the attention it deserves. But it’s kind of a bummer that new folks will be getting what feels like the more casual-friendly sequel. And I very much doubt that many who are introduced to it through Mearls’s Vale are going to go back and read the source material in books for an outdated version of the game, let alone actually play 4e. More likely, Mearl’s Vale is what most people are going to think of when they hear “Nentir Vale.” And that’s too bad, cause the original is (in my opinion) so much better.

Emphasis added.
This paired with the repeated fears that this will lead to a formal PDF product or even setting guide based on Mearl's version rather than the true/better/original version. (Especially with the term "casual" that tends to be used in place of "real" or "dedicated". Casual can very easily become a pejorative.)

This very much set me off being similar to talking points I'd see far, far too many times before. Most recently about the new She-Ra show, but going back years and decades. Pre-Internet really. Defensiveness of a property leading to feelings of ownership and getting upset at new fans who are doing it wrong and liking an inferiour version of the product. The bad adaptation. The poor sequel. The bad that sold out for better radio play.
(Again, this is something I've seen so often, I have my own term for it.)

You're allowed not to like something. That's fine. But when you start getting upset that other people are going to be introduced to a different version than you were and start viewing that extremely negatively then it's really time to take a step back.
Because that's not you. You're not that guy.

 

[Charlaquin]

Okay, here's the thing. The biggest problem to the health, growth, and prosperity of geeky communities and general and D&D communities in specific is toxic fandom and the related gatekeeping.

As I discuss above, it's something I'm no stranger to and something I've wrestled with myself.

Right, which is why you’re projecting that baggage on to me. I don’t appreciate it.

At first I was just curious about the problem with customising a setting that is, basically, a Lego set of a setting. But then there were these comments:

Emphasis added.
This paired with the repeated fears that this will lead to a formal PDF product or even setting guide based on Mearl's version rather than the true/better/original version. (Especially with the term "casual" that tends to be used in place of "real" or "dedicated". Casual can very easily become a pejorative.)

Ok, I am not afraid that this will lead to a formal PDF or setting guide, and I have not expressed such fears. What I have said, repeatedly, is that it sucks to not be excited by the prospect of one’s own favorite setting returning. I’m not “afraid” of the setting returning, I’m disinterested in it returning, and feeling that way about Nentir Vale bums me out. As for the term casual, I was using that as part of the analogy to a video game series, because that’s the usual complaint about new entries in beloved series and I thought it would be the analogy with which you could most easily identify. I guess I was right, you just latched onto the wrong part of the analogy.

To be perfectly clear: I have absolutely no problem with casual gamers, in fact I would consider myself one. I also have no problem with anyone who likes Mike Mearls’s interpretation of Nentir Vale. I personally dislike it (and not because it is “casual-friendly,” that was just part of the analogy. I dislike it because it changes details about the setting that I was very fond of). Because I dislike it, I am uninterested in Mearl’s stream set in it, which I feel conflicted about, because a Nentir Vale streaming game is precisely the sort of thing I would normally be very into. But I bear absolutely no ill will towards anyone who does enjoy it. My conflicted feelings are entirely personal.

This very much set me off being similar to talking points I'd see far, far too many times before. Most recently about the new She-Ra show, but going back years and decades. Pre-Internet really. Defensiveness of a property leading to feelings of ownership and getting upset at new fans who are doing it wrong and liking an inferiour version of the product. The bad adaptation. The poor sequel. The bad that sold out for better radio play.
(Again, this is something I've seen so often, I have my own term for it.)

But here’s the thing: I have not said a single bad thing about people who like Mearls’s interpretation of Nentir Vale. Because I don’t believe there is anything wrong with liking it. You are assuming an ultirior motive behind my personal distaste for a setting that I am not expressing, and I do not hold.

You're allowed not to like something. That's fine. But when you start getting upset that other people are going to be introduced to a different version than you were and start viewing that extremely negatively then it's really time to take a step back.

Well then it’s a good thing that I’m not upset that other people are going to be introduced to a different version than me. Maybe you need to take a step back, because you’re seeing straw people keeping straw gates.

Because that's not you. You're not that guy.

No, I’m not, and I deeply resent being compared to that guy. Please stop it.

 

[Parmandur]

It bugged the eff out of me initially.

Basically, in the setting, Strahd expelled a tribe of invaders (the Tergs) from Barovia, spending his entire youth fighting to free his homeland. He succeeds and sees his brothers fiancée, falls in love, and strikes a pact with ambiguous “Death”. He wasn’t evil until then, but had a choice and fell to darkness out of possessive toxic “lovel.

In CoS, Strahd waged wars of conquest and took over the land that became Barovia, and built Castle Ravenloft himself. He was already evil, having tortured and killed an elite order of paladin knights and then silver dragon patron. Then made a deal with the vestiges of dead gods for power. Only after that he met Tatyana. There’s no tragedy in that story. No fall from grace.

As far as the Mists go, there are a number of different domains/ kingdoms, with the Mists surrounding the entire continent, not just Barovia.
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/PortraitHall/JesterMaps/Jester_maps_gallery.html

But, as you say, lots of people like the original adventure and not the setting. And lots of people dug this adaptation. So long as someone is happy, it’s a positive thing and good for the game. And the people who are fans of the original adventure are likely much, much more common and numerous than fans of the setting.

Seems that the differences come down to Tracy Hickman's involvement with Curse of Strahd: he was not a fan of the setting at all, and his idea of Strahd is what Perkins put in the book.

 

[dave2008]

It bugged the eff out of me initially.

Basically, in the setting, Strahd expelled a tribe of invaders (the Tergs) from Barovia, spending his entire youth fighting to free his homeland. He succeeds and sees his brothers fiancée, falls in love, and strikes a pact with ambiguous “Death”. He wasn’t evil until then, but had a choice and fell to darkness out of possessive toxic “lovel.

In CoS, Strahd waged wars of conquest and took over the land that became Barovia, and built Castle Ravenloft himself. He was already evil, having tortured and killed an elite order of paladin knights and then silver dragon patron. Then made a deal with the vestiges of dead gods for power. Only after that he met Tatyana. There’s no tragedy in that story. No fall from grace.

As far as the Mists go, there are a number of different domains/ kingdoms, with the Mists surrounding the entire continent, not just Barovia.
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/PortraitHall/JesterMaps/Jester_maps_gallery.html

But, as you say, lots of people like the original adventure and not the setting. And lots of people dug this adaptation. So long as someone is happy, it’s a positive thing and good for the game. And the people who are fans of the original adventure are likely much, much more common and numerous than fans of the setting.

I didn't realize they changed the backstory in CoS. That is a shame.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

I really like 4E's Dawn War mythology, but found the Nentir Vale to be generic and forgettable. None of the awesome backstory made it into the present for the players to directly interact with. I like Mearls' take on the Vale and will definitely tune in.

PS: In fairness, I think Fallcrest is a pretty great starter town.

 

[Parmandur]

I didn't realize they changed the backstory in CoS. That is a shame.

They didn't change anything from the original Advent module: more of a back-to-basics reboot, and returning to the original authorial vision.