NeverWinterNights vs RolePlayingMaster - the beginning of the end ?

[Luke]

Okay, well that's a headline grabber, but for a year I've wondered about the "pen and paper" computerized RPG vs the ultimate realtime graphical D&D game - and I've tried to take it on.

Can "pen and paper" compete for the "mass market share"???

It's a very open question, and I think it's helpful to get specific with practical examples.

It's pretty clear that Bioware want to transform the game we play at the table to a fully computerized game that will eventually win the hearts and minds of D&D players. It's being marketed as the game that a DM can use to provide the ultimate D&D experience, without giving anything up.

It's also pretty clear that many players, and especially DMs, are after the best electronic aids they can find to help cut down on their preparation time (or even in-game time).

I consider RPM to be the "pen and paper" utility most suited for comparison to NeverWinterNights. The question isn't about RPM though. With MasterTools (E-Tools) severly cut in functionality, it's just the best real-world example I can find.
I've developed RPM from the start to be the electronic aid that promotes "pen and paper", whilst providing the best possible electronic assistance.

Where RPM and NWN are the same:
- They both follow the D&D rules (though RPM is actually generic D20).
- They both allow you to create comprehensive characters, NPCs and monsters.
- They both allow you to build adventures, complete with maps, locations, descriptions and encounter groups.
- They both provide automated attack, spells, AC calculation, skills resolution.
- They can both display your encounters on a map, obeying rules for movement and managing initiative, along with XP calculation.

Where RPM and NWN differ:
- NWN is 3D and RPM is 2D. NWN will bring beauty and very fancy effects to you through your screen. RPM will display very dull 2D maps to assist mechanical calculations, and leave the beauty to your imagination.
- NWN is exciting realtime, and RPM is slow turn-based. Trade-offs. I contend that you can't afford the full flexibility of 3rdEd combat in realtime managed through a keyboard and mouse. RPM will allow you that. A very key point?
- NWN is inflexible, RPM has open flexibility. This applies the ability to have open D20 expandability, but mostly to in-game options. For example, how does a realtime game cope with a wish spell, compared to a human DM. You'll eventually get to see that *lots* of the spells have limitations in the game world that don't exist in the "pen and paper" world.
- NWN provides scripting and occasional DM intervention, whilst RPM relies totally on the DM. RPM has a powerful scripting capability (nothing like NWN AI though), but I'm not personally going to do AI for RPM.

Please don't get hung up on whether or not you like RPM. That's not the issue (and the chances that you've seen the very different latest and different PreBeta version is extremely remote, if any version at all).

The point is: Can the "pen and paper" style compete long-term with Computer Role Playing Games of the NeverWinterNight's calibre?
I know WotC think (thought?) so. We're a greying market, and the Hasbro/Infogrames deal dealt a *savage* blow to the MasterTools grand plan.
Will the flexibility of imagination eventually win out over the inflexible sizzle?

Can the next generation of D&Ders, brought up more on computers, and less on book learning than the previous generation, be coaxed to go with the "pen and paper style"?

By the way: I've waited a *long* time for NWN, and can't wait to while away endless hours with it...

Regards,

 

[Broken Fang]

I still think, like many who have been around for awhile, that role-playing is a great time to get together and BS with the buddies. It won't be the same sending chat messages back and forth. Thats why I don't play computer rpg's...I have nobody to BS with! I would rather play something that the rest of the group doesn't want to play on my time.

 

[mikebr99]

It has yet to be seen if NWNs lives up to the hype...

I for one... by virtue of living out in the boonies will not be able to get full use of any online realtime gaming system/program as I don't have a high speed connection.

Paper rules! There is just so much more that coan be done in the minds of the players and the DM...

And the almost 5000 members here plus probably an equal amount of lurkers would have nothing to do if it went by the wayside.

 

[Luke]

The realtime game is definitely more about interacting with the computer rather than your mates.
I'll get back to the "greying market" issue, as WotC calls it. I'm 36 now, and started when I was 14. Many of us were introduced to D&D/RPG long before computers did anything decent in this area.

Now that realtime 3D games are trying to "cross the bridge" to pen-and-paper territory, what will the next super-computer-literate generation do with RPG? Sit down and memorize core books for traditional pen-and-paper? Interact via the NeverWinterNight-of-the-day?

I'm thinking that significant compter assistance will eventually be a must. Will the RPM-of-the-day manage to hold on to the original style of the imagination, or will we play within the confines of the inflexible realtime 3D game?

What sort of issues will have us persisting with an imaginative style not simmering with visual sizzle?

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Re: NeverWinterNights vs RolePlayingMaster - the beginning of the end ?

The realtime game is definitely more about interacting with the computer rather than your mates.
I'll get back to the "greying market" issue, as WotC calls it. I'm 36 now, and started when I was 14. Many of us were introduced to D&D/RPG long before computers did anything decent in this area.

I'm 32 and have been playing D&D (as well as others) since about 14 or 15 years old also...

The computer aides are certainly becoming more useful to manage the paper game. I even use a laptop during gaming for the modules and the combat mapping etc.

My group is spread out all over now, and other then debate stuff via email, we don't play except when we get together (which amounts to once a month now... damn wives and kids...).

I'm sure that we will all purchase NWN when it comes out, but it wont stop the guys D&D weekends for us... lust fill in the gaps between I'd imagine...

 

[Henry]

I am a 20-year veteran of Tabeltop RPG's, and I find it very hard these days to plan good in-depth D&D sessions without a computer - everything from word processors to graphics design programs assist me in creating the smoothest and most consistent game-world that I can create.

I also feel that tabletop RPG's are in no danger from games such as neverwinter nights, because they cater to different tastes. NOT different audiences, but different TASTES.

Just as D&D players who played Magic:the Gathering return to D&D periodically, D&D players who play NWN will return to the tabletop eventually. The only thing that could threaten TRPG's is if computing were elevated to such a status that the experience would be more virtual reality than computer RPG.

But then, if you have a virtual reality good enough to overcome TRPG's, you have bigger issues to deal with than where you spend your entertainment: You have issues such as "Do I spend the next month in the real world, or on the holodeck?"

TRPG's, which MANY people seem to forget, are a communal pastime. Without the community, there is no comparison. Even games such as NWN, unless played with everyone in the same room, which is what NWN is partly geared for, cannot compete with a good DM and the thrill of a shared experience that exists solely within the collective imagination of the players. Also, people forget that even the best WYSIWYG toolset is no match for the imagination of a good Game Master.

Until "NWN version 9.0" = "Vanilla Sky version 1.0", then TRPG's are not in direct danger. One will steal time from the other in a cycle.

 

[ForceUser]

NWN is going to be a great game, but it will never replace tabletop roleplaying. It's always more fun to hang out with your buddies and share laughs and cheetos.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

I agree with ForceUser. My dad and I had this conversation last night, actually. He said he never really "got" roleplaying games, he never saw the appeal, and I guess he figured I would grow out of them (I'm 26 and I see no end in sight), but he also said he thought the whole trend was probably doomed and would be replaced by some other 'trend,' saying that as new kids grow up they will find entertainment in other forms.

I disagreed, but only to an extent. I do think that if TT RPGs are going to be replaced at all, it will be through computers. But I pointed to my own experience with EverQuest, an experience I think a few people here may share.

When I first started playing it, I couldn't believe the level of virtual reality and depth to the game. But slowly, I realized it really was nothing more than a mindless pursuit of the highest (lowest?) order, as all the interaction was generally lame (I could never shake the feeling that the elf druid was a dorky teenage kid who never left his computer room, and probably never really roleplayed anything in his life). Plus, the stories, monsters, and "adventures" were so hollow, regenerating themselves after a while to be re-tread. It was stupid, and a waste of time. There was no room for creativity, and that's what gaming (and my point) is all about.

People play RPGs to express creativity. Sitting in front of a computer screen (e.g. NWN) doesn't really involve creativity at all; it may inspire it, but ultimately you are using the concepts given to you from the game designers. Your character wears only the armor that has been illustrated by the game-artists, the visuals of spell effects are designed for you, and so forth. And forget making up your own spells or gear. It's just so "canned."

I don't think CRPGs will EVER replace true TT RPGs simply because of this limitation. The masses may flock to them, just as the masses flock to videogames more than to RPGs, but there will *always* be a place for true roleplaying.

It's human. Or, alternatively, demihuman.

 

[Psychotic Dreamer]

Personally NWN will not be replacing anything I do online or in person. Mainly because of the fact that my system doesn't come anywhere close to meeting the system requirements for NWN. So even if it's the greatest most interactive game ever it wont affect what I do.

 

[Lazybones]

Just a quick reply to Wolfen Priest:

I think that the reason so many people are looking forward to NWN is because it does address some of the concerns you raised in your post. Because a real live DM will be on the other end of the computer, wtih the power to jump into an NPC and interject dialogue, or spawn new monsters at a mouse click, or otherwise change the game to respond to the choices of the players, this will allow the game to more closely approximate the PnP experience. Many module-makers may just go for the "canned" approach and make creations that are static, but I suspect the truely fun experiences will be the "live" games with an actual DM.

As for customizability, just to give an answer to another point... I've only worked with the beta toolset, but I've already created NPCs with custom clothes/armor in just a few minutes. With all of the configurable options for body parts, colors, types of armor etc., the designers have said that there are a few trillion possiblities for what each character looks like. Although he admitted that only a few billion actually "look good."

So I think NWN offers the hope of a virtual gaming experience that goes far, far beyond Everquest and its clones. Sure, in the wrong hands it can and will suck, but its possibilities are what has people excited. And for those of us who can't manage a tabletop game for whatever reason, it will be a great option to play 3e (admittedly a tweaked version).