NeverWinterNights vs RolePlayingMaster - the beginning of the end ?

[Luke]

NWN is going to be a great game, but it will never replace tabletop roleplaying. It's always more fun to hang out with your buddies and share laughs and cheetos.

True. But you can do things other than playing D&D when you hang out with your buddies.

Looking to the next generation of gamers, will they be prepared to sit down and learn a minimum of 3 books of rules, and most probably between 6 and 8? It'll be a different scenario to the current majority of "old-timers". I'm assuming that it's a lot easier to get into 3rd edition D&D as an old-timer, than as a "virgin" curiously looking at a set of books on a retail shelf.

It's all computers now. Traditional learning is transitioning from the printed word to the computer. Can we assume that software, rather than books, will ultimately play a big part of D&D gaming? If so, will RolePlayingMaster type aides fill the need, or will the NWN programs takeover?

 

[stormdragon]

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I think NWN will be just another way to play D&D. Thier are many who have a hard time finding a group, or would like to play with thier old group but distance is a major issue. For these reasons NWN will provide a way to still play, and it will be good for WOTC I know many many people who are buyting D&D source books in preperation fro thier NWN campaign.

 

[Henry]

Stormdragon has it right - many players will likely be using it to supplement their D&D gaming, not supplant it.

Three great hurdles remain:

1) Complete customizing capability without learning a lot of new skills in programming or art creation by the DM, and complete customizability and flexibility of characters by players

2) The ability to share table talk with other gamers, as well as outside of game experiences

3) Complete control by the DM in an intuitive fashion

Once you have these three elements, Computer RPG's (by then likely some kind of virtual reality of its own) will supplent tabletop RPG's.

 

[bolen]

Here is my vision of what gaming will be like in 10 years.

Just as almost all DM's use a screen almost all DM will have some type of laptop.

I think all players will have some version of a palm for their character stats.

I also think more DM's will use their PC to show pictures and movies created in programs like NWN.

I think that the NWN game will appeal to pen and paper gamers the same way as EQ does. It will not replace pen and paper because pen and paper is a social experience. One that online games can't capture.

 

[kibbitz]

Okay, well that's a headline grabber, but for a year I've wondered about the "pen and paper" computerized RPG vs the ultimate realtime graphical D&D game - and I've tried to take it on.

Can "pen and paper" compete for the "mass market share"???

It's a very open question, and I think it's helpful to get specific with practical examples.

It's pretty clear that Bioware want to transform the game we play at the table to a fully computerized game that will eventually win the hearts and minds of D&D players. It's being marketed as the game that a DM can use to provide the ultimate D&D experience, without giving anything up.

It's also pretty clear that many players, and especially DMs, are after the best electronic aids they can find to help cut down on their preparation time (or even in-game time).

I consider RPM to be the "pen and paper" utility most suited for comparison to NeverWinterNights. The question isn't about RPM though. With MasterTools (E-Tools) severly cut in functionality, it's just the best real-world example I can find.
I've developed RPM from the start to be the electronic aid that promotes "pen and paper", whilst providing the best possible electronic assistance.

Where RPM and NWN are the same:
- They both follow the D&D rules (though RPM is actually generic D20).
- They both allow you to create comprehensive characters, NPCs and monsters.
- They both allow you to build adventures, complete with maps, locations, descriptions and encounter groups.
- They both provide automated attack, spells, AC calculation, skills resolution.
- They can both display your encounters on a map, obeying rules for movement and managing initiative, along with XP calculation.

Where RPM and NWN differ:
- NWN is 3D and RPM is 2D. NWN will bring beauty and very fancy effects to you through your screen. RPM will display very dull 2D maps to assist mechanical calculations, and leave the beauty to your imagination.
- NWN is exciting realtime, and RPM is slow turn-based. Trade-offs. I contend that you can't afford the full flexibility of 3rdEd combat in realtime managed through a keyboard and mouse. RPM will allow you that. A very key point?
- NWN is inflexible, RPM has open flexibility. This applies the ability to have open D20 expandability, but mostly to in-game options. For example, how does a realtime game cope with a wish spell, compared to a human DM. You'll eventually get to see that *lots* of the spells have limitations in the game world that don't exist in the "pen and paper" world.
- NWN provides scripting and occasional DM intervention, whilst RPM relies totally on the DM. RPM has a powerful scripting capability (nothing like NWN AI though), but I'm not personally going to do AI for RPM.

Please don't get hung up on whether or not you like RPM. That's not the issue (and the chances that you've seen the very different latest and different PreBeta version is extremely remote, if any version at all).

The point is: Can the "pen and paper" style compete long-term with Computer Role Playing Games of the NeverWinterNight's calibre?
I know WotC think (thought?) so. We're a greying market, and the Hasbro/Infogrames deal dealt a *savage* blow to the MasterTools grand plan.
Will the flexibility of imagination eventually win out over the inflexible sizzle?

Can the next generation of D&Ders, brought up more on computers, and less on book learning than the previous generation, be coaxed to go with the "pen and paper style"?

By the way: I've waited a *long* time for NWN, and can't wait to while away endless hours with it...

Regards,

Well, NWN and such might be fun to mess with, but I don't think it'll ever be flexible enough for me to do certain things with, like casting a WaterBolt on the pile of rocks there to create a rockslide to bury the orcish sorceror, or those swashbuckler-type maneuvers where you swing over to the other side of the room/ship with curtains, ropes and whatnot.

 

[Luke]

Here is my vision of what gaming will be like in 10 years.

Just as almost all DM's use a screen almost all DM will have some type of laptop.

I think all players will have some version of a palm for their character stats.

I also think more DM's will use their PC to show pictures and movies created in programs like NWN.

This is pretty close to my own thinking. I don't think that palms have the capacity for fast enough clustered networking quite yet though.

The philosophy I have behind the way I've done RPM is that it's an aid to the tabletop experience, whereas the NWN approach is that you immerse yourself in the 3D computer world.

I'm not so sure about pictures and movies though. Artwork and 3D modelling takes an *enormous* amount of effort. You're still left with the inflexibility of working with what was provided "out of the box".

There's a lot of 3rd edition mechanics you can't do in realtime though:
Consider the NWN attack in realtime. How quickly can you choose exactly what you want using a mouse and keyboard?
At the table you can think about options for:
- Aid another
- Bull Rush
- Charge
- Disarm
- Defend totally
- Sunder
- Easily switch between normal and subdual damage
- Easily change around the number of points you're spending in Power Attack, or on Expertise.

And that's just the attack. I've followed the NWN forums on things like spells for a long time. You can't be nearly as inventive with spell use in the computer world.

I'd go so far as to say that, except at a surface level, they're 2 different games.
I also think that NWN isn't even real roleplaying. I never felt that playing Baldur's Gate was roleplaying. I was always following a pre-determined story line, and the appearance of being able to go anywhere and "do anything" was always pretty superficial.

NWN might get a lot closer than Baldur's Gate ever could, but for my money, it takes far too much effort to construct a computer world that supports the main player campaign story line (in a non-predetermined way).

 

[Agamon]

NWN will simulate D&D pretty good. But it's not D&D. Just like MS's Flight Simulator sims flying, Deer Hunter sims hunting, and Dance Dance Revolution sims dancing. But it won't replace it any quicker than audio books and e-books will paper books.

 

[hong]

NWN is going to be a great game, but it will never replace tabletop roleplaying. It's always more fun to hang out with your buddies and share laughs and cheetos.

Never been to a LAN party?

I wonder how common NWN LAN parties will become?

 

[Welverin]

NWN will simulate D&D pretty good. But it's not D&D. Just like MS's Flight Simulator sims flying, Deer Hunter sims hunting, and Dance Dance Revolution sims dancing. But it won't replace it any quicker than audio books and e-books will paper books.

Good point. NN is just a PC game. Think of it as the CRPG version of a first person shooter (e.g. Half-life, Quake). It'll let you play with other people and relatively easily created your own. It?s just a PC game with tools packed in to make it easy for the mod community to work with it?s not meant to replace tabletop games and we wouldn?t be hearing about this if the game wasn?t based on D&D. If it was just some generic CRPG with the same toolset no one would give it a second thought, beyond ?cool I can make my own maps!?

 

[Doc_Subtlety]

I'd go so far as to say that, except at a surface level, they're 2 different games.

I'm in this camp.

My last campaign featured:
- The players using Control Water to dig a trench through a lake, then breaking out the Lyre of Building and a Comprehend Languages spell to figure out the ruins beneath the waves.

Treasures like:
- A sentient glaive that claimed the gods were all evil, and could fell divine spellcasters with a touch. (The decision about whether or not to ever keep it almost split the party in half - I laughed for hours. )

- Pourable Adamantine - just add a mold. The PCs never figured out what it was, and they were scared to open it and see.

- Intestinally slotted Ioun Stones.

- An Infernal staff that honestly stated the bearer would "crush mountains." (All they ever learned to do with it was throw Sonic Firestorms. Never got at the good stuff.)

- Crossbow bolts with Enervation poison. The group decided
these were too evil to use or sell, and simply burned them.

NWN will be fun. I'm sure of it.
But it won't look anything like the stuff I mentioned above.