NeverWinterNights vs RolePlayingMaster - the beginning of the end ?

[Hand of Evil]

D&D/roleplaying is basicly a ninch market and some could argue spawned computer games. To grow and survive roleplaying needs to embrace the tech of computer gaming.

While I think NWN is going to be a very nice game and very helpful I don't think it will kill the table top. I think you will see a merging of the two. Play the table top, see the visual.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

I don't think too many people here would deny that D&D (and really all roleplaying) is about telling a story. Somehow I'm not convinced LAN parties and online games (which are in some ways not much different than EQ in terms of what people they will likely draw) are about storytelling; rather, it seems these events and the people setting them up would be more along the lines of computer geeks and gurus, rather than people who want to get together in the tradition of telling a story.

I have a few good friends who are VERY into computers and computer games. One in particular. His family is very wealthy, and he has all the hardware, and knowledge, to partake of this kind of thing. He gets a huge kick out of it, and I hate to say it, but he's just the kind of guy who would abuse the system as much as he could, even disrupt it, just for a laugh. BTW, he doesn't really play roleplaying games. But he would play NWN.

As another poster mentioned, I don't have the hardware to even play this game, and the people I play with (who are as close to broke as you can be), don't even own computers. I'm not about to drop $1000 or so on a new machine so I can play this one game, at least not for a few years.

I played Baldur's gate, EverQuest, and others. But once the intitial "surge" of fun that the technology provides wears off, I think you'll have everyone (all the real RP'ers) coming back to Table Top. The kids will move on to the next videogame craze.

As for the predictions about the gaming technology level in the next 10 years, I hate to disagree, but I think those estimates are WAY too optimistic. I don't think most *typical* roleplayers have the resources to pull that off, and most gamers aren't even that organized. I'd say it will be at least 20 years (or much more) before that kind of thing is actually common, and by then people will be using computers for everything else anyway.

The economy is not going to sustain that kind of growth curve, people. The product market of computers is plateauing; that is, even while technology increases dramatically, fewer and fewer people will care. Example: Star Wars II Attack of the Clones; best special effects ever... but a lot of people still think its a crappy movie. Effects and gimicks do not a story make.

AND, if NWN is going to 'open the doors of creativity,' then I think we can expect about the same response as we got through the OGL. That is, there will be a few gems, perhaps. But a lot of the stuff coming out might well be garbage.

 

[Hejdun]

Couple things:

It's pretty clear that Bioware want to transform the game we play at the table to a fully computerized game that will eventually win the hearts and minds of D&D players.

I think it's also pretty clear that Bioware doesn't want to make this a true representation of 3e. Look at all the things they are changing, items, the costs of things, uber items, they are rehashing quite a bit of the skills system, etc. There are many places where they could have made it the same as 3e, but choose not to.

To Luke: I'm only 15. I just got into RPG's 2 years ago, and I see no hope of converting to NwN. It just doesn't give the customization or allow the creativity.

In short, they will be two different games. NwN might be based off 3e, but it can't replace it.

 

[Agamon]

I think it's also pretty clear that Bioware doesn't want to make this a true representation of 3e. Look at all the things they are changing, items, the costs of things, uber items, they are rehashing quite a bit of the skills system, etc. There are many places where they could have made it the same as 3e, but choose not to.

Not true. I've been following development of NWN closely. All changes were made because they had to be because NWN is a PC game and then made other changes to balance the first changes. Bio ran all their changes by WotC reps before implimenting them. A lot of the designers play D&D. They did what they could to make it as similar as possible. There are a fair number of differences, but the system is intact and there's much more that is similar than not.

 

[hong]

I don't think too many people here would deny that D&D (and really all roleplaying) is about telling a story.

D&D (and really all roleplaying) is what you make of it. Some people like storytelling, some people like rolling dice, others like creating a whole new world.

I played Baldur's gate, EverQuest, and others. But once the intitial "surge" of fun that the technology provides wears off, I think you'll have everyone (all the real RP'ers) coming back to Table Top. The kids will move on to the next videogame craze.

"Kids"?

 

[Luke]

...
In short, they will be two different games. NwN might be based off 3e, but it can't replace it.

Okay. Given general agreement that computers have a definite role to play in game preparation, and that they are becoming more relevant to tabletop play (laptops and palms synced etc), any ideas on what the next generation of table-top based software should do?
Any ideas on what a NWN-type program suited to flexible, imaginative table play, rather than realtime 3D graphics, would do?

 

[BlackMoria]

Will computer RPGs like NWN replace pen and paper D&D? - not a hope. Pen & paper D&D allows the player and DM to do virtually anything. For a computer RPG to allow that flexibility, it would have to be several magnitudes more sophisticated that NWN will ever be.

Pen & paper D&D is in danger, but not from CRPGs. It is in danger because it is in the hands of a large company where the bottom line is the end all. Read what Monte Cook has to say on this.

http://www.montecook.com/lineos.html

But that is another topic altogether.

Back on topic - If I were to blow the dust of the ol' crystal ball, this is where I see the future of D&D eventually taking us.

Computers will be seen more and more at the tabletop. A number of DMs currently use laptops as aides. Players are starting to use handhelds. This is just scratching the surface.

Improved handhelds are being developed, as well as tablet PCs.
The stuff I have seen on the tablet PCs is amazing. All the power of a full sized laptop into a computer slightly bigger than a iPaq or a Palm, with a much larger display. With built-in wireless networking.

Imagine the possibilites with the right developed software - the DM can have his battlemat right on tablet PC. He sees and manipulates everything. With layering, the players see the same map but with only what the DM wants them to see. A player moves his character with a drag of his stylus - everyone sees the action update on their PC. The character enters a hex or square the DM has setup as a trap. The software sees a triggered event and resolves it automatically, by seeing who else is affected, resolving the saving throws, allocating damage and automatically updating the player's character sheet, as well as the DM's character management module.

The DM calls for initative rolls - the players use the dice program to make the initative rolls. Automatically, the initiative order appears for the DM, along with the monsters inititative. The DM activated the initiative count down and the player in question get a pop up informing him he can do his actions.

For the monsters, the attack rolls and damage routines are automated for the DM, freeing him to concentrate on tempo and cinematics for the battle. Character sheets are automatically updated as the result of damage or ability loss.

You start to see the potential. Less disruption of the game resulting when the player or DM tries to round up enough D6s for the 20d6 Horrid Wilting, or to resolve the 6 - 8 attacks and damage of a monster who has that number of attacks.

More time playing, less time pausing the game to roll mountains of dice or to resolve disputes on who is where or who did what.
Less time drawing out a room and putting minatures and terrain out while the players wait to see what is going to happen.

IMHO, this is where D&D is heading. It is slowly going to evolve from a purely pen and paper game into something more to do with computers, but less than what we have come to accept as the norm in CRPGs.

So pen and paper D&D will not be surplanted by CRPGs..... but pen and paper D&D will evolve into something more to take advantage of the power of the computer.

My two cents....

 

[JCLabelle]

Good stuff from everyone, especially on the tech side. But I'd like to mention something which has'nt been really brushed yet.

Graphical Interactive CRPGs ( Neverwinter Nights ) and MMORPGs ( Everquest, Ultima Online, etc ) are truly in their infancy. You're looking at the Donkey Kongs of a genre. Developpers have barely scratched the surface of what they can do with those. Eventually, those will probably replace Pen & Paper RPGs, but it's gonna be a while because they still have to include a few key features.

First of all, Verbal communication. Voice translating programs are getting stronger every year. At first, players will use programs that allow them to speak with the people they are interacting with in the context of the game ( and it's already started, tho it's not perfect -- see Roger Wilco and other similar programs ) since voicing an idea is generally much faster than typing it. Eventually, when translation programs become cheaper, you'll be able to have your voice pass in a filter to have it be transformed into whatever voice your character should have. Male to Female/Female to Male will the first steps of this, but eventually computing power should allow for a wide range of different voices.

Secondly, User created content. Games will allow for more and more user created content as time passes. In a RPG sense, that'd be Spells, Weapons and Items but also houses, lands, even whole dungeons and towns. The most terrifying adversary you can offer to a player is another player. The first few games to offer a fraction of this are on the way ( Shadowbane for example ) but might well fail, because players have been scarred by bad experiences in previous games where Player VS Player interaction was badly planned. Ultimately however, I contend that developpers will be forced to let the players develop part of the game themselves, due to lack of manpower to satisfy everyone. Their primary job will be to offer a well planned and interesting basic world, a few events from time to time to advance the timeline, and to create a set of tools as user friendly and powerful as possible that the players can use to enhance the world themselves.

As for electronic tools for the current era of RPGs, I'd kill for a 2-D map making software similar to NWNs -- Tile Based, with the possibility of dropping items, monsters and features on the ground. Essentially, something extremely simple to use.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I need to feel the dice in my hands to fully enjoy the RPG session. I tried using a rolling program in my Dm'ing and I found it boring.