New 44-Page Elements of Magic (Revised) Preview!

[Verequus]

I've been more or less busy with preparation for some tests (one is still ahead), so I looked into the teaser in my learn break. I've looked the thread through to avoid posting questions two times (found only five, which speaks for different mindsets of the readers ).

Here they come:

-Where is the statement, that you can't combine different cantrips at no cost? Deleted?
-One thing that isn't clear to me: If one casts a spell with a cone effect and chooses to use the maximum range as starting point, does the cone extend of the range or just vanish?
-Is the option of extending of spells with a duration of one day in the full version mentioned? Are other durations also extendable?
-"No effects provide Nature Resistance, however." How then can someone protect himself against Evoke Nature?
-"Armor Class, [Alignment]. The spell provides AC against attacks made by creatures of the appropriate alignment." "Armor Class, [Creature/Element]. The spell provides AC against natural unarmed attacks made by creatures of the appropriate type/elemental descriptor." Why the difference between these efects? Doesn't the AC-bonus count in the latter case, if someone uses the attack roll option of Evoke [Element]?
-"Saving Throw, [Alignment]. The spell provides a saving throw bonus against spells, attacks, and abilities from creatures of the appropriate alignment. It also applies against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate alignment." Which effects with an appropriate alignment descriptor aren't affected? Don't count a holy sword or other objects with alignment like axiomatic or chaotic weapons? Wouldn't be the following wording easier to understand? "Saving Throw, [Alignment]. The spell provides a bonus against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate alignment. It also applies to all saving throws caused by effects from creatures of the appropriate alignment." Which saving throw causing attack wouldn't be called an alignment effect, too? Except the massage damage rule and special weapon properties (Disruption, Thundering) I don't recall such a thing.

"Saving Throw, [Element]. The spell provides a saving throw bonus against natural extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities from creatures with the appropriate elemental descriptor. It also applies to saves against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate element." is similar. Which ability is neither natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural? Seems to cover all cases. Are attacks included? My wording suggestion: "Saving Throw, [Element]. The spell provides a saving throw bonus against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate element. It also applies to saves against all abilities (including attacks?) from creatures with the appropriate elemental descriptor."

BTW, how are the Alignment descriptors assigned to creatures? The ones with a subtype [Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil] maintain theirs, but what about creatures with only one alignment subtype or even none? Becomes everyone at least [Balanced] or [Balanced/(choose one) Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil]?
-"Telepathic Domination (7 MP). For the spell’s duration, you may command the creature whenever you want from any distance, with any level of complexity." Also from other planes?
-"Create Air: When you create air, you can choose its temperature, between extremes of -40 and 150 degrees." Celcius or Fahrenheit?
-"Alternately, if you target creatures directly (or if you target an object that needs air, like a fire), the spell will provide fresh air for them." This allows to put a fire into air-tight box, doesn't it? But the fire won't burn immersed in water, I think one has to use Move Water for breathing.
-"Evoke Death spells that allow saving throws for half damage require Fortitude saves instead of Reflex saves." Is this only for simple spells or also for complex spells? If the latter, are the saving throws for other elements also fortitude saves? The same issue for Evoke Life.
-"Putrify Food (1 die). Can make up to four pounds of food toxic to eat for creatures of the appropriate elemental type or alignment, riddling it with parasites and diseases." How is the appropriate element or alignment determined?
-"All Evoke spells deal a base of 1d6 points of damage." I see that the damage cap has been removed. Does a spell Evoke [every Element] 0/Evoke [every Aligment] 0/Gen 0 27d6 damage with no cost or at least 1 MP?
-"Enduring Curing (varies). ... You may choose this enhancement multiple times to cure damage more quickly." Do multiple castings stack? One answer from you in this thread implies that they do.
-I don't find the possibility to use Heal Fire on creatures Infused with Fire.
-Move Air: "No Fall allows the creature to travel in a straight horizontal line in mid-air, and downward at any angle, but not upward." Which speed is allowed for the creature? The base speed?
-Move Death: "If a creature or object is stilled, it cannot move or be moved from its position at all." I think, you wanted to use "anchored" instead "stilled" at this last sentence.
-Move Earth: What happens, if you are still inside solid matter when the spell expires?
-Move Fire: Can the creature control the path it uses? Or has it to collide which wahtever standing in its way?
-Is summoned creature really dead, if killed, or can it be summoned again after 24 hours?
-Transform Creature: Can you simply change yourself into a creature with a template? For example giving yourself the Winged template?

"When a creature changes form, it keeps its own hit points and Constitution score, but it gains the new form’s Strength, Dexterity, movement abilities, natural armor, and innate natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities." Isn't it unbalancing, if a party member is changed into a golem with magical immunity? And why isn't the Constitution score changed, too? For balance reasons? Or can that be at least an enhancement?

Animate enhancement: "If this enhancement is chosen for a transformation of one creature into another, the transformed creature must make a Will save (same DC as the rest of the spell) or have its mind change so that it acts like the new creature. This cannot raise ability scores above 10." Are the ability scores otherwise retained? Has a man turned into dog an Intelligence score of 2 or his own?
-BTW, did you check the Epic rules out? It has been released as Open Content last week.
-Can I have a current copy, too? And have I really to buy the release version? I thought it would be released for free.

 

[Verequus]

I've used double post for addendum

-If someone changes a human into an undead, does he lose his constitution score? Generally, are nonabilities and traits from new gained types used?
-Is Spell Focus still available?

 

[Charles Gray]

A few things get changed around because of the differences in systems. In EOM, there is no such thing as a luck bonus, divine bonus, or natural armor bonus. Now, mind you, I don't have the Epic Level Handbook, and couldn't really use its rules for epic magic items anyway because that part is not open content, but the magic item costs do end up being very close to things in the DMG, as long as you stick to the normal +5 limit..

one quick note-- the SRD has just been updated in the last week or so to include the Epic SRD, including the magic system.

 

[Verequus]

Two other questions came into my mind:

-How Evoke Death level drain attacks are shielded without Abjure Death? Death-beings are immune against this kind of damage, so can one gain this descriptor with Infuse Death?
-If a monster, e.g. a golem, has a certain reaction to specific spells, how can these be simulated? If the golem is vulnarable to a fireball, is he then:

• vulnarable to Evoke Fire spells in general?
• vulnarable to Evoke Fire spells which are at least as good as the core fireball?

The last point raises the question: When is a EoM-spell as good as its core counterpart?

• It has to use at least the MP equivalent of the core spell level, e.g. for a fireball at least 5 MPs.
• It has to emulate the basic effect, duration, range and area aren't as much as important as the damage dice.

The latter seems to follow the spirit more.

 

[LeePerry]

2 cents worth

Just 2 cents worth from a VERY ancient gamer (have I really been playing RPGs for that long?).

It seems (from all of the posts) that the typical attempt to "break the rules" followed by the inevitable "fix the leak" are dangerously close to removing most of what makes this new class appealing. There must be advantages for taking the class before it will be used. If you "fix" all of the "breaks", you might end up with a class that is significantly less powerful than a Wizard or Sorcerer AND less flexible.
Whenever someone says "I can do this!", instead of immediately considering this a break in the rules, check to see if this supposed advantage is offset by other weaknesses.

With that in mind, I do have a couple of suggestions: (I know, some will think that one or all of these blow the class balance. I just think one or all make sense...)
#1: Maximum MP currently equals your casting level. Why not allow maximum MP's to be your casting level PLUS 1/2 of your Intelligence Modifier (round down). This would allow a character with a high potential for magic (equated to Intelligence Modifier in 3.5) to push herself to greater effect. Maybe balance this with a fatigue penalty if your final spell MP exceeds your level. Picture Raistlin casting to exhaustion...
#2: I don't see anything regarding bonus MP's from high ability scores (unless I've overlooked it. If so, sorry...).
#3: BONUS SPELL LISTS EQUAL TO YOUR INTELLIGENCE MODIFIER! In my opinion, this only makes sense. A more intelligent caster should be able to call upon a greater variety of effects.

I truly loved the first version of The Elements of Magic (what do we call it? Elements Classic?). I think the potential is there for dramatic development.
I have ideas for a campaign (Ars Magica influenced) where game balance goes bye-bye and wizards are allowed to shine. This new rule book (or Elements Classic) sounds like the D20 rules I need to bring this vision to a magical life.

Again, just my 2 cents worth...

 

[RangerWickett]

Here is a long reply to a long question. And there are more to come.

-Where is the statement, that you can't combine different cantrips at no cost? Deleted?
Perhaps. It should be in there. It will be in the final version.

-One thing that isn't clear to me: If one casts a spell with a cone effect and chooses to use the maximum range as starting point, does the cone extend of the range or just vanish?
Well, there are two things you can do. Usually you just buy a range for a cone, and the spell starts somewhere within 5 ft. of you and extends like any normal cone. However, if you buy both a normal range and a cone, such as, say, a 30-ft. range and a 150-ft. cone, you can have the cone start at any point within 30 ft., and point any direction.

-Is the option of extending of spells with a duration of one day in the full version mentioned? Are other durations also extendable?
No spell lasts longer than a day. The exceptions are magic items (which cost XP), create spells that create things that are eaten or forged or whatever, and contingency spells that can lay in wait for up to a week, but whose effects still have a duration of a day or less. There is no such thing as the Extend Spell feat.

-"No effects provide Nature Resistance, however." How then can someone protect himself against Evoke Nature?
Damage reduction. Evoke Nature does normal, physical damage, which can be resisted with DR. There's no energy involved.

-"Armor Class, [Alignment]. The spell provides AC against attacks made by creatures of the appropriate alignment." "Armor Class, [Creature/Element]. The spell provides AC against natural unarmed attacks made by creatures of the appropriate type/elemental descriptor." Why the difference between these efects? Doesn't the AC-bonus count in the latter case, if someone uses the attack roll option of Evoke [Element]?
Abjure Element should be revised so that the AC protects against all natural attacks by the creature, which includes things like beholder eye rays. It does not protect against ray of death spells that characters cast, nor does it protect against sword attacks, bows, etc. The difference is because Abjure Evil only protects against things that are EVIL, as in demons, evil clerics, etc. People who are simply normal folks that are Neutral Evil don't count as evil for that purpose.

If we just let Abjure Humanoid protect against all attacks by humanoids, it'd be far too good. Abjure [Alignment] is generally much more limited, and so its protection extends to more things.

-"Saving Throw, [Alignment]. The spell provides a saving throw bonus against spells, attacks, and abilities from creatures of the appropriate alignment. It also applies against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate alignment." Which effects with an appropriate alignment descriptor aren't affected? Don't count a holy sword or other objects with alignment like axiomatic or chaotic weapons? Wouldn't be the following wording easier to understand? "Saving Throw, [Alignment]. The spell provides a bonus against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate alignment. It also applies to all saving throws caused by effects from creatures of the appropriate alignment." Which saving throw causing attack wouldn't be called an alignment effect, too? Except the massage damage rule and special weapon properties (Disruption, Thundering) I don't recall such a thing.
Good point. That wording is a bit clearer.

"Saving Throw, [Element]. The spell provides a saving throw bonus against natural extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities from creatures with the appropriate elemental descriptor. It also applies to saves against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate element." is similar. Which ability is neither natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural? Seems to cover all cases. Are attacks included? My wording suggestion: "Saving Throw, [Element]. The spell provides a saving throw bonus against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate element. It also applies to saves against all abilities (including attacks?) from creatures with the appropriate elemental descriptor."
I'll have to re-examine the wording after I reread the Abjure section a bit more closely. As is, though, it only protects against those abilities which are natural to the creature. Thus Abjure Death will give you saving throw bonus against a Bozak's death attack, but not against a lich's spells, because the spells aren't a natural aspect of the creature; they're skill-based.

BTW, how are the Alignment descriptors assigned to creatures? The ones with a subtype [Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil] maintain theirs, but what about creatures with only one alignment subtype or even none? Becomes everyone at least [Balanced] or [Balanced/(choose one) Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil]?
That's one part I hadn't written up in the rules, yet, but basically you only qualify as good or evil or lawful or chaotic if you have that descriptor (such as for Outsiders) or if you are a spellcaster aligned to a powerful entity of that alignment. Everything else is neutral. Since the default of EOM is that magic is not necessarily given from the gods directly, few PCs or non-monstrous NPCs will have an alignment descriptor. But this is one of the areas we talk about in the GM advice section, suggesting you decide what exactly qualifies.

By the way, you've now encouraged me to add Infuse [alignment] back in. I couldn't think of much for it to do, but now it will help make people susceptible to spells that affect that alignment. Of course, only an evil person would use Infuse Good on an enemy just so they can Evoke Evil against them; a good person will generally not want to dabble in dark arts.

-"Telepathic Domination (7 MP). For the spell’s duration, you may command the creature whenever you want from any distance, with any level of complexity." Also from other planes?
No.

-"Create Air: When you create air, you can choose its temperature, between extremes of -40 and 150 degrees." Celcius or Fahrenheit?
Sorry, I'm Amero-centric. I'll clarify that it's Farenheit (sp?).

-"Alternately, if you target creatures directly (or if you target an object that needs air, like a fire), the spell will provide fresh air for them." This allows to put a fire into air-tight box, doesn't it? But the fire won't burn immersed in water, I think one has to use Move Water for breathing.
That's an odd question. I personally would rule that, in calm waters, you could submerge a torch or something similar affected with Create Air, and have the fire keep burning. In any strong current, though, the water would act like rain or strong winds, and could put out the flame.

-"Evoke Death spells that allow saving throws for half damage require Fortitude saves instead of Reflex saves." Is this only for simple spells or also for complex spells? If the latter, are the saving throws for other elements also fortitude saves? The same issue for Evoke Life.
If I cast Evoke Fire 3/Evoke Death 3/Gen 1 and target you with a spell that does 4d6 fire and 3d6 death, you make a Reflex save against the fire, and a Fort save against the death.

-"Putrify Food (1 die). Can make up to four pounds of food toxic to eat for creatures of the appropriate elemental type or alignment, riddling it with parasites and diseases." How is the appropriate element or alignment determined?
Oops, that's a typo, from when I copy/pasted Purify Food from Heal. It's been revised a bit more in the full version, but most food counts as a 'nature' object.

-"All Evoke spells deal a base of 1d6 points of damage." I see that the damage cap has been removed. Does a spell Evoke [every Element] 0/Evoke [every Aligment] 0/Gen 0 27d6 damage with no cost or at least 1 MP?
The old adage is, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. No, you can't cast Evoke Everything 0 for 27d6 damage (anyway, the good damage wouldn't hurt any good targets, and same for other alignments, so it'd be more like 25d6). You do have to spend at least 1 MP per spell list, unless it's a simple spell.

-"Enduring Curing (varies). ... You may choose this enhancement multiple times to cure damage more quickly." Do multiple castings stack? One answer from you in this thread implies that they do.
Yes, multiple castings stack.

-I don't find the possibility to use Heal Fire on creatures Infused with Fire.
It's a part that wasn't done yet on Infuse, so we didn't include it in the teaser. But yeah, that's an option.

-Move Air: "No Fall allows the creature to travel in a straight horizontal line in mid-air, and downward at any angle, but not upward." Which speed is allowed for the creature? The base speed?
Yes, base speed as usual.

-Move Death: "If a creature or object is stilled, it cannot move or be moved from its position at all." I think, you wanted to use "anchored" instead "stilled" at this last sentence.
Yes, another typo.

-Move Earth: What happens, if you are still inside solid matter when the spell expires?
Ah, the joys of covering all your bases. It'd be like the core spells that do similar things; you get shunted out, taking 1d6 damage for every 10 ft.

-Move Fire: Can the creature control the path it uses? Or has it to collide which wahtever standing in its way?
You just move faster, not out of control. There's no drawback.

-Is summoned creature really dead, if killed, or can it be summoned again after 24 hours?
That's up to you and your GM to decide, based on your world. If you summon specific creatures, then I'd suggest yes, a summoned creature that dies is dead, though if you choose a specific creature, it gets a save to resist. If you just conjure up some monster out of the aether, it doesn't really matter.

-Transform Creature: Can you simply change yourself into a creature with a template? For example giving yourself the Winged template?
I didn't know there was a winged template. But yeah, for about 1 MP you could turn yourself into a flying human for a minute.

"When a creature changes form, it keeps its own hit points and Constitution score, but it gains the new form’s Strength, Dexterity, movement abilities, natural armor, and innate natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities." Isn't it unbalancing, if a party member is changed into a golem with magical immunity? And why isn't the Constitution score changed, too? For balance reasons? Or can that be at least an enhancement?
Con doesn't change just because, if we did have it change, we couldn't let it change your hit points, or that'd be incredibly broken. We could have let your Con change but then your hit points don't, but I always found that aspect of polymorph a little clunky. As for turning into a golem, I don't know the MP costs off hand, but it's horrendously expensive to get something as strong as a golem. Plus, the GM can always veto things that seem blatanly overpowered.

Animate enhancement: "If this enhancement is chosen for a transformation of one creature into another, the transformed creature must make a Will save (same DC as the rest of the spell) or have its mind change so that it acts like the new creature. This cannot raise ability scores above 10." Are the ability scores otherwise retained? Has a man turned into dog an Intelligence score of 2 or his own?
If a man is turned into a dog, and he fails his Will save, his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma change to that of a dog, lowering if a dog's score is lower (like a 2 Intelligence) and increasing if the dog's is higher, unless the increase would go above 10, in which case it just goes up to 10. So if David the wizard (Int 20, Wis 6) was turned into a dog, he'd end up with a 2 Int, 10 Wis.

-BTW, did you check the Epic rules out? It has been released as Open Content last week.
Dude, the book is done. I can release epic rules some time later. Sorry man, but I'm running out of steam, and the spell seed system hurts my head.

-Can I have a current copy, too? And have I really to buy the release version? I thought it would be released for free.
The teaser is released for free, and the teaser is enough to play the system, though you don't get the full depth of abilities that are in the actual book. As for handing out copies, I won't be sending out any more. I don't want a half-dozen different versions floating around with minor typos and unedited things all over the place. The next version you see will be the full release.

 

[RangerWickett]

-If someone changes a human into an undead, does he lose his constitution score? Generally, are nonabilities and traits from new gained types used?
Ah, thanks for catching that. Yes, if you turn into a form that doesn't have a constitution score, you lose your Constitution score (and thus can't be poisoned, etc.), though your hit points do not change. The exception I'd let through is if you turn yourself into an undead permanently, such as by turning into a lich with Transform Undead and Craft Permanent spell, then you'd change to having the normal d12 per hit die. Transform spells made permanent by Craft Permanent Spell are not cancelled in an antimagic field.

-Is Spell Focus still available?
Yes, in a slightly altered version.

 

[RangerWickett]

-How Evoke Death level drain attacks are shielded without Abjure Death? Death-beings are immune against this kind of damage, so can one gain this descriptor with Infuse Death?
If you use Infuse Death to be 'deathy' enough, then yes, you're immune to level drains (and other Evoke Death effects).

-If a monster, e.g. a golem, has a certain reaction to specific spells, how can these be simulated? If the golem is vulnarable to a fireball, is he then:

• vulnarable to Evoke Fire spells in general?
• vulnarable to Evoke Fire spells which are at least as good as the core fireball?

The last point raises the question: When is a EoM-spell as good as its core counterpart?

• It has to use at least the MP equivalent of the core spell level, e.g. for a fireball at least 5 MPs.
• It has to emulate the basic effect, duration, range and area aren't as much as important as the damage dice.

The latter seems to follow the spirit more.
I don't know that any creature is particularly vulnerable or resistant to a single spell. I know that fire helps iron golems and lightning slows them, but I'd say that as long as the spell is similar in theme and power, the GM shouldn't have a problem letting it sub in. For instance, with the newly minted Infuse Good spell list, you can create the lovely blessed crossbow bolt that will slay a Rakshasa

 

[RangerWickett]

Just 2 cents worth from a VERY ancient gamer (have I really been playing RPGs for that long?).

It seems (from all of the posts) that the typical attempt to "break the rules" followed by the inevitable "fix the leak" are dangerously close to removing most of what makes this new class appealing. There must be advantages for taking the class before it will be used. If you "fix" all of the "breaks", you might end up with a class that is significantly less powerful than a Wizard or Sorcerer AND less flexible.
Whenever someone says "I can do this!", instead of immediately considering this a break in the rules, check to see if this supposed advantage is offset by other weaknesses.

With that in mind, I do have a couple of suggestions: (I know, some will think that one or all of these blow the class balance. I just think one or all make sense...)
#1: Maximum MP currently equals your casting level. Why not allow maximum MP's to be your casting level PLUS 1/2 of your Intelligence Modifier (round down). This would allow a character with a high potential for magic (equated to Intelligence Modifier in 3.5) to push herself to greater effect. Maybe balance this with a fatigue penalty if your final spell MP exceeds your level. Picture Raistlin casting to exhaustion...
#2: I don't see anything regarding bonus MP's from high ability scores (unless I've overlooked it. If so, sorry...).
#3: BONUS SPELL LISTS EQUAL TO YOUR INTELLIGENCE MODIFIER! In my opinion, this only makes sense. A more intelligent caster should be able to call upon a greater variety of effects.

I didn't want to stereotype spellcasters as being very smart/wise/charismatic. Do what you want.

I truly loved the first version of The Elements of Magic (what do we call it? Elements Classic?). I think the potential is there for dramatic development.
I have ideas for a campaign (Ars Magica influenced) where game balance goes bye-bye and wizards are allowed to shine. This new rule book (or Elements Classic) sounds like the D20 rules I need to bring this vision to a magical life.

Again, just my 2 cents worth...

I tried not to just limit it to things the core rules can do, but to really let whacky stuff be available. Now, mind you, some of the original whackiness had to go, such as using Transform Magical Beast 20/Gen 0 to turn your buddy into a Tarrasque for a minute. But I know a few tricks that I'm hoping other people will see, and I hope they don't turn out to be too bizarre or powerful. Right now, the one I'm most worried about is the Scrying-rider spell ability, which lets you do stuff like Scry on an enemy, charm him from halfway around the world, and use him to sabotage your other enemies without getting into trouble.

That's high level stuff, and I like it.

 

[Blue mage for hire2]

Is there a restriction against magic creating gold objects?

What do you do to keep your players (and NPC mages) from creating gold coins with create metal? Even non-permanent spells last long enough to fool a shopkeeper, and I'm pretty sure SOMEBODY in the world won't mind producing heaps of gold at the expense of a little XP. NPC XP has always got me befuddled (where'd the wizard's get the XP to create all those +3 Full Plates and why to they just leave them on the selves for any rich son of a gun to pick up?) and therefore, inflation will soar out of control if NPC spellcasters are more than a little common.

I suggest either a government thats main focus is to keep mages under control, or some sort of magical currency. Little trinkets that require a confidential ritual to create, maybe giving extra mp for a piece at the expense of the coin becoming worthless. Something like that.

Hope to see the finished product soon! It looks great!