New classes and new rule for Thiefy campaign...

[Jeph]

Re: Re: KO

Thanks for the feedback everyone.



It's a good idea, but there's still the problem of how a level 1 Rogue is going to do approx. 14 damage (average CON for Fighter1) with a sap... even with a sneak attack and a STR bonus of +2, you still need to roll double 6 to do 14 damage.

This is irrelavent anyway, as the gaurd will only have 12 HP if he has max HP at level 1, or 7-8 HP if he doesn't. At higher levels, the gaurds will have more HP, but the rogues will have way more sneak attack damage

 

[Marius Delphus]

Keep in mind that Garrett (the player's character in Thief and Thief II) is not a 1st-level rogue. He's able to hide in the narrowest of shadows, sneak around alert guards wearing hobnail boots (which he mysteriously refuses to turn in for soft-soled ones), and KO practically anyone who isn't wearing a helmet that covers the back of the neck. He's quite good with a shortbow though he's indifferent as a swordsman. To me, these seem like the hallmarks of a character who's more like 7th-10th level.

Looking a bit beyond the characters themselves, the most faithful Thief/Thief II translation would include steam and semi-magical technologies seen in the games, from electric lights to primitive robotics, but of course these aren't really *necessary* if you're running a thief-centric game... though the technology elements do make a neat change from standard D&D. Above all, the computer game world is gritty and very low-magic.

If you have access to the latest Dungeon/Polyhedron, find the "Improved Initiative: Alert Factor" article. Because the AIs' alertness has a big impact on what Garrett can get away with, it might be useful to have a concrete way to model the "awareness states" of NPCs.

Some equipment notes:

Water arrows: The water payload puts out small fires (candles and torches up to small fireplace-size), cleans up bloodstains from the ground, and makes a slight sound.

Fire arrows: The explosion on impact also deals fire damage in a 5' radius of the target. It makes a loud sound and is tricky to aim.

Moss arrows: I agree the moss cushion looks about 15 feet across, and I'd give the +4 bonus to Move Silently.

Gas arrows: The gas spreads about 5' from the point of impact.

Rope arrows: When fired into a wooden surface, they deploy about 20' of rope and won't pull out of the impact site unless grabbed. I'd place a limit of about 300-400 pounds on the rope's tensile strength (enough for Garrett to swing on laden with treasure).

Vine arrows: As rope arrows, but will also stay at the point of impact if they strike a metal grate.

Noisemaker arrows: They create an indistinct sound equivalent in volume to a loud conversation for about 2 rounds.

Flash bombs: Anyone who looks at them explode is blinded for 1 round and dazzled for the next 2 rounds. About the size of a grapefruit.

Explosive mines: Equivalent to a glyph of warding set to deal 3d6 fire damage to the first creature (Small or larger) that enters its square. Also deals 1d6 fire damage in the surrounding 5' squares when it goes off. Can be disarmed with lockpicks. Mines are about the size of a dessert plate.

Gas mines: Equivalent to a glyph of warding that simulates a gas arrow hit. Can be disarmed with lockpicks.

Flash mines: Equivalent to a glyph of warding that simulates a flash bomb going off. Can be disarmed with lockpicks.

Flares: Short-duration sunrods. About the size of a torch.

Frogbeast eggs: Equivalent to a short-duration summon nature's ally II spell. Choose an appropriate beastie from your favorite swamp dwellers.

Scouting orb: In the game, this is linked to (MILD SPOILER for Thief/Thief Gold) Garrett's artificial eye (END SPOILER). Acts like a visual-only scrying sensor that can be tossed and recovered. About the size of a grapefruit.

Healing potion: There's a delay on healing potions in the Thief world. Perhaps they grant Fast Healing 4 for 2-4 rounds?

Speed potion: Short-duration potion of expeditious retreat.

Breath potion: Can be consumed while underwater. Resets the Drowning Rule to 0 rounds.

Invisibility potion: Short-duration potion of invisibility.

Slow-fall potion: Short-duration potion of feather fall that has the side effect of reducing the drinker to one partial action per round until it wears off.

Happy thieving!

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Garrett is definitely an experienced character, as Marius Delphus points out. I can, however, see the appeal of putting together a game where players could feel like they were having that sort of experience from 1st level. You might simply consider starting your players at higher than first level, though. Even boosting that to 3rd level, by virtue of getting rogues an extra Sneak Attack die, does a lot for their chances of taking down rank-and-file guards by surprise.

Mind you, even a 1st-level rogue could help his chances a fair amount if he had the Dirty Fighting feat (Sword & Fist), but since that feat has absolutely no longevity (that is, it's quite useless for even moderately high-level characters) it's better suited to low-level NPC's. (Background if you don't have the book: the feat gets you a bonus 1d4 points of damage, but only if you take only a single attack with a Full Attack action).

On a related note, Traps & Treachery also has an Improved Sneak Attack feat, but as I remember it it's a bit ill-conceived.

 

[Marius Delphus]

Indeed, 3rd is about the lowest level I'd want to start a thief-centric campaign at. A bit of hand-waving about "intensive training" or, alternately, a "life spent on the streets" and you have your justification.

On the subject of one-blow knockouts, of course guards can have any number of hit points the DM wants them to have... suppose the novice characters' first targets are guarded only by cheap mercenaries (who are cheap because they're kinda wimpy = below average hp)? Maybe these are targets that aren't really worth the time of higher-level thieves, but the Keepers might see them as perfect "in the field" training opportunities for certain up-and-comers.

Or for more training opportunities, perhaps the Keepers set up "dummy" target locations with happy employees who are well paid to collapse convincingly the first time they are coshed with a sap? These mock guards would role-play (!!) real guards, and behave accordingly... except that they are using blunted swords and arrows that cause subdual damage. This one may require a little DM chicanery if the players aren't aware it's just an exercise (and we don't want the characters killing off these helpful hirelings, either; one kill and that'd be the end of that idea as far as the rest were concerned).

Check into alternate hit point systems (VP/WP, Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty, others?); one of these *might* make things easier.

(MILD SPOILERS for Thief/Thief II)

The Keepers always struck me as non-thieves... more like loremasters. Can't recall why. I only recall inferring they were pulling Garrett's strings because he could pull off stunts they couldn't. Certainly they wanted to prevent the NPCs in Thief (I) from doing what they ended up doing, but for some reason they didn't take direct action... they dumped Garrett into it.

And oh yeah, for more low-magic flavor, make sure the undead are as fearsome as they are in the computer game... maybe like low-HD trolls, they have regeneration against all but fire and holy water (acts like acid against them). If the PCs have access to other energy types, those might work too (DM's discretion as always).

The payload on a water arrow will also douse "robot" boilers (the larger models take two shots in quick succession -- the first cools the boiler sufficiently that the robot is momentarily immobilized, but he warms right back up in 1 or 2 rounds). I'd say the robots launch bombs that are equivalent to mines, except they explode a moment after landing (often scattering 5-10' in the interim). Robots may have to wait until the PCs have a few more levels.

(END SPOILERS)

With the moss arrows providing a circumstance bonus to Move Silently, remember to throw in circumstance penalties for noisy floors (metal and tile especially). A moss arrow ought to cancel any such circumstance penalty.

Ahem. Well, what can I say, I've been replaying Thief II recently.

 

[Magic Missile]

I did seriously consider Grim n Gritty, but I ended up modifying it lots and lots to try and get it to do what I wanted, before deciding it would be much easier to implement one additional rule in D&D combat than an entirely new ruleset...

At the moment I'm thinking of rapidly levelling them to 3rd almost straight away with some basic Fed-Ex style missions (I don't want to start them at 3rd, I've got some people new to D&D playing and the level-up process would be easier for them) before sending them on any "serious" burglaries.

They will be Thieves Guild members until maybe 4-5th level, then be recruited into the Keepers. I agree they're not hugely thievery oriented, hence the lack of Sneak attack and more special class abilities...

And my revised sap KO rule: Touch attack to hit, +2 AC for a helmet. Roll damage as normal. If subdual equals or beats current hp, target is KO'd.

Hopefully a 3rd level thief can KO a slightly under average guard with the standard d6+d6+d6+STR subdual...

 

[Marius Delphus]

Then it sounds like you've got things well in hand!

Would love to hear about the campaign as it progresses; one of my players is a big Thief fan (frex., he's spent *hours* in Bafford's Manor) and I've seriously considered running a solo-rogue game or two just to see how it goes. No good opportunities yet... but I was thinking about using the medium and large strongholds from Dragon #295 (?? the Castles issue) as places for him to infiltrate.

Also of course I fancy myself a better DM than the computer.

Thanks for the update!

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Also remember that water arrows can be used to delivery a payload of holy water against undead. Handy way to deal with that pesky range increment for grenade-like weapons in D&D.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Oh, another thing. While I don't think it's ever spelled out, it's pretty clear to me (if, for example, you look at the various 1st-level warriors in the Monster Manual) that the rule to maximize hit points at 1st level is really only intended to apply to player characters. Those 1st-level fighters (or warriors) get a lot easier for your 1st-level PC rougues to knock out if you play it that way.