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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6186830" data-attributes="member: 95493">Yes? When one version/game has something you want and another one doesn't then, all other things being equal, you are going to pick the one that has what you want. Entitlement is another reason why someone may pick things. Is it not one of yours Mistwell? That is cool but I think everyone is allowed to pick whatever requirements they want. Let's say we're getting ice cream. One option comes with chocolate and the other with chocolate and nuts. I'm picking the one with chocolate (no nuts) because I don't like nuts on my ice cream. You may love the one with cashew pieces, but if I'm the ice cream guy and I see this I might sell both instead of being "One True Way" about it and only selling the one with nuts.And as for "entitlement" for "not having to jump through hoops" aka 3e play - imagine having seat-belts in cars.There was once a time when you didn't have seat-belts. And today there are still schoolbuses which don't have them either. But cars now do and going forward it would be nice if they came standard-equipped, or at least the option. No having to install them myself (houserule) or anything. Now, using them is something else entirely but entitlement does have something to do with it when talking about safety. Even if it was no longer illegal to make cars without them, the manufacturers would be wise to keep them as at least an option or else the people who like safety won't even look at their cars.(I don't know why I had a seat-belt example in me, I almost didn't include it - but for some reason it needed out!)How many here? On these boards? That's probably a pretty small number (either 0 or nearly there) considering almost everyone on these forums is probably an NPC/NPC class. Err I mean that PCs aren't everybody else, PCs go out and do things - they're adventurers and get XP far faster than the rest of us. How many of us have doctorates in anything, let alone multiple things? Skip that. Few on these boards would have thought up a RPG system back in the 70s. Some, maybe, but few could have done it. That said, someone did and now we have DnD. Being a very tiny minority or being very unlikely to do something doesn't mean it should not be allowed. If a setting has practically zero spellcasters able to cast the strongest spells in the game - doesn't mean those spells shouldn't be included NOR that the PCs should not get there.(Also, strawman argument, as already pointed out.)On monk/sorcerers (assuming both at the same time): Had several in my games. And they were strong because they usually ended up taking Enlightened Fist (3.5) and kicked so much butt. Same goes for other combinations (monk&cleric/wizard, sorcerer&fighter) but that's not the point here.On sorcerers (just single class, as I think you probably meant): Had several of these too. Many even. People don't always like huge lists of spells prepared. One guy loved it but that's a topic for another time. I guess my point for sorcerers was that sorcerers in 3.5/PF are tier 2. In fact I just rolled one up in PF's kingmaker and it was the strongest party member in 80% of situations.Monks (again, assuming you meant just the single class): Monks are harder. That doesn't mean they're truly gimped. Even excluding combinations of monks and other classes which make truly unkillable, I've had a lot of really tricky monks. Monks may not be the best killers but they can live through most everything - which means they're very hard to kill. And yes, on the matter of "best killers" I had one (again PF..) in my most recent campaign that was so powerful that he was breaking the game, making it not fun for others. I had to use a lizardfolk with class levels and a total ECL about 5 (maybe more I forget now, it wasn't less than 5) higher than the monk just to challenge him - and ended up killing him after the fight (during RP moments as the party wanted him dead and didn't help or stop the lizardfolk chief from chewing out his throat).But it has nothing to do with entitlement, even if that is somehow a bad word.My point I guess being is that monk/sorcerer, sorcerers, or monks are not "mechanically gimped." Tier 2 for the one, and strongest melee combatant I've had thus far in PF for the other. And a really strong contender when you mix them, as often happened in 3.5 days.</blockquote>

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