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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6188301" data-attributes="member: 42582">I'm looking at the wizard, who sets a save DC of 8 + INT + prof with (say) staff. At 11th level, let's be conservative and say the wizard has 18 INT, so the DC is 8 + 4 + 4, or 16.Dominate Person or Feeblemind (using one of 2 5th level slots or a 6th level slot) forces a DC 16 WIS save. Disintegrate (using a 6th level slot) does around 60 hp of damage on a failed DC 16 DEX save. Polymorph (using one of 3 th level slots, 2 5th level slots or a 6th level slot) forces a DC 16 WIS save. Blight cast using a 4th level slot does 45 damage on a failed DC 16 CON save, and half that on a successful save.At 11th level, a barbarian has no proficiency bonus on WIS or DEX saves. S/he has the hp to withstand the Disintegrate (77 hp + 11* CON, so probably 100+, plus the raging temps), but even with a 16 DEX still has only a 40% chance of making the save. With a 16 CON, the chance of making the save vs Blight is 60%, so expected damage from that spell is only 31.5. But the likelihood of saving vs the Polymorph, Dominate or Feeblemind attack is pretty slim. (25% with WIS 10 or 11, 30% with WIS 12 or 13.) A fighter comes out much the same as a barbarian, though with 12 fewer hp.A bard, with proficiency only to INT and CHA saves, and average hp at 11th level of 41+11*CON, is even worse of. S/he has a very real chance of being disintegrated (fewer than 60 hp and only a 50/50 chance of saving even with 20 DEX). Expected damage from Blight, assuming a 12 CON giving a 30% chance of saving, is 39 damage, which isn't fatal but is pretty brutal. The prospects against the WIS attacks are probably better than a barbarian because a bard is more likely to have WIS, but even with 20 WIS that is only 50/50. And Inspire Competence doesn't help saves.Clerics, druids and rangers have WIS save proficiency, which boosts their chances against the WIS attacking spells - 20 WIS +4 prof means success 60% of the time (thought that's still a 40% chance of hors-de-combat). Rangers also have DEX save proficiency, which boosts their chances against Disintegrate, and in any event they have the hit points to take it. A rogue has DEX save proficiency to help against Disintegrate, but has the same hp as the bard and so is equally vulnerable to Blight, and even against Disintegrate has a 40% chance of being zapped and probably disintegrated. Monks have the same saves as rangers, but worse hp (at 11th level, 53+11*CON) - still, they can withstand Blight or Disintegrate and have only a 40% chance of being dominated, polymorphed or feebleminded.Besides monks and rangers, the heroes of saving throws are paladins, adding CHA to the saves of themselves and their allies. On the current numbers this strikes me as a pretty potent ability.Anyway, I don't think the saving throw problems are multi-class related. Saves are hard even when its proficiency vs proficiency; when its proficiency vs base stat they become near-impossible, and once again we see the issue of casters getting to bring their level to bear (boosted DCs for proficiency) while those making the save cannot do so.</blockquote>

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