Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Graf" data-source="post: 4496037" data-attributes="member: 3087">Just for the record, the drow purge isn't 1000 years ago. It's "some undefined but long time ago". I don't mind the idea that a few eladrin in the Imperium (who may live a 1000 years or so) have heard about the drow from their great grandfathers.I don't see why we need to have eladrin psychology be just like human psychology, or why we need to say that the drow thing happened 20,000 years ago or didn't make sense.Eladrin, in particular, are fey. The Veritas thing (which I called <a href="http://www.enworld.org/wiki/index.php/The_Imperium#The_madness:_the_elves_revolt" target="_blank">the maddness</a> in the original writeup) is a massive and complete transformation of a chunk of eladrin society. It had been building for a long time; but the actual petition to the goddess, the transformation of the eladrin into elves and the beginning of the campaign of assassination happened very quickly.I see no reason why we can't have non-humans work differently than humans (especially fey).[d]--[/d]I think these three "quotes" really capture my feeling on the subject.We should be flexible, and while keeping drow as evil, not try to force one tight definition. (it won't work anyway really).I do think we should respect the desire to have drow be evil. I have an idea for how to explain that "mechanically" (not a really mechanic, just a story tool). I go into more detail below.[d]--[/d]This... is a brilliant idea. It's an extension of what I was going for, but articulated with a lot more verve.I haven't totally incorporated it into the suggestion below, since I think that people will want to play more traditional drow. And a lot of the drow powers and abilities don't really match with those of an earth goddess.I also think we can evil play around a bit with Lolth as a Lillith (i.e. wife of adam) type character (with Lauto/Hadeys as an unlikely Adam figure)How about this.: <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Originally there was this intense matriarchal earth cult of Eladrin that got ejected from the Imperium very violently.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They traveled to some particularly hostile place in the elemental plane of earth that is supposed to be close to gaia; where they form a small city [ken's idea]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Life was hard, gaia can't help her followers directly (she's been imprisoned by the gods and helpless in the deepest core of the elemental plane of earth)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lolth comes in disguise offering herself as gaia's daughter; at first everyone embraces her, but some become wary.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lolth is/was a demi-goddess; a favored consort of Lauto/Hadeys she was something else originally, some sort of demon from the Shadowfell. And she was his favorite until he became infatuated with Peresefa/Proserphones</li> </ul> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lolth reveals herself and completes the transformation of most of the refugees into the drow. The transformation is justified along the lines of the existing religious beliefs (hiding underground etc) Those that resist are forcibily converted through torture, magical coercion, and in some cases the goddess' personal touch. etc. However this has several effects:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The gods are not amused. Mortals are made to worship them, and while none of them are particularly unhappy to see titian worshipers get their due, nor to does any one of them personally want to get into a fight with Lolth (she is a goddess, or something like it). So they pass, as a pantheon a sort of law: That drow shall have choice.  This can help explain how some drow, born into an evil society, suddenly and radically break free. > Good drow</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The "true followers of gaia" (call them Gaians) avoid he taint of corruption, they are captured and tortured. As mentioned above most are effectively forcibly converted. However a few hold out their extreme privation, performed on top of Gaia's prision; somehow acts as a sympathetic magical effect, allowing Gaia to stir (this totals the city and allows a handful of Gaians to escape). (Did Lolth know and plan this? Is Lolth tapping into Gaia's power somehow through the crack in her prision?) > True Gaians</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A few of the drow, in some cases their torturers, who were corrupted by lolth realize that they were wrong. Newly changed by lolth (before the curse is fully effective and/or as a result of the passage of the gods law) they manage to shake off the direct connection to Lolth and escape with the Tue Gaians. > Gaian Drow [ken's idea]</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Another group converts to Lolth, but does so for practical reasons, they want a patron. A god, who grants spells and can get them out of the hellhole that is the deep elemental chaos that they've trapped themselves in. They don't really appreciate the degree of sadistic insanity that they're in for, and within a few generations they've basically thrown themselves at Lauto/Hadey's mercy. > Shadar-Kai</li> </ul> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Over time the drow themselves wind up fragmenting. Lolth moves them off the elemental chaos and into various positions.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Some travel to her plane develop unique abilities > dark warlocks/infernalists, driders, drow-demon hybrids, drow/shades, etc</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Some are sent to form "core communities" on material planes (or their equivalent); to grow in strength and number and allow her to to flourish as a real goddess with real worshipers. Their infamy increases her infamy</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Some are sent to serve her existing agents, or placed on permanent other powers (usually) evil. So drow can turn up anywhere really, often times from a clan that has served that dark force (often by aiding it's agents) for centuries or longer</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Others were sent as spies and servants. Tainted by Lolth's touch they grant her indirect information about all the worlds and planes they travel to. Most are 'evil' in 3.x talk, but probably unaligned in 4e. Some may turn to good, but lolths touch means that she gets insight and awareness about the plane they dwell upon. And sooner or later they will have children who are strongly tainted by her touch and who seek her out to fulfill their destiny.</li> </ul>Key points:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lolth and the drow-related races are now more closely tied into the overall religious framework established (I do not love "free floating" gods).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It keeps the elf-like races connected in a way that makes sense.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lolth is now an up and coming demi-goddess; one who hates Peresefa/Proserphones and has a complex relationship with Lauto (she hates him, but we can leave room for more. She'd love to supplant him, torture him, and ultimately have him embrace her as a subordinate devoted follower -- this could explain why she helped crack the titan's prision in the first place).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Drow are tainted and evil; that taint persists. A given drow may escape or resist it; but that doesn't mean that their children are all shiny happy little carebears. They're prone to the same sadistic impulses, extreme selfishness, desire to dominate that all drow are.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There are lots of different kinds of drow.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">But many of those different kinds are e-v-i-l.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The drow are part of a larger play by Lolth, one that allows her to increase her power and status. She needs people to know of her, before they can fear (or even worship) her. A small, evil goddess, and the current priesthood of the gods doesn't talk about her (except to say that she used to be a demon, and got dumped by Lauto when something better came along)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Good drow don't hurt her PR....After all, if one lone drow shows up, and is sorta nice and the bestest swordsman ever and talks all the time about how there is a whole race of people who are just as bad ass as he is, but evil and they worship the crazies evilist godess ever... if you were inclined toward evil, wouldn't that be a walking advertisement that maybe you should consider "upgrading your religious choice".</li> </ul> </li> </ul>Current status of the racesTrue Gaians may appear as NPCs or PCs, they're extremely rare. They aren't drow, nor are they eladrin. They're like supercharged genasi elves; or something even more extreme (no longer have physical bodies but just project themselves into plants)Gaian Drow are drow who were tainted by Lolth, but freed when the first city was destroyed during the cracking of Gaia's prison. They helped the True Gaian's escape, and their connection to Lolth has been severed but they're still dark-skinned underground-living elves; albeit nature worshiping pagan types. They have sadistic impulses, etc, but they don't have that innate connection to Lolth that drags them toward evil.Drow (see above) - Basically the drow don't know their own history. They know they were ejected from eden-equivalent (probably for being pure and good) and lolth came to save them when they would have been destroyed. Generally they think that they've embraced evil because it's the one true path; some are evil for evils sake. Some have a more complex set of religiuos beleifs (as befits creatures with high intelligence) they feel that they are only evil because the gods made the world this way, and that Lolth has simply taught them to be evil because that's the only way to get by. She is cruel to because she loves them. The Mechanism for Good Drow and it's ramifications: Each drow, in principal, gets a personal choice between good an evil, this is a magical effect produced by the collective will of the 12 gods. Lolth does her darnest to make sure that they choose evil (so the sadism of drow society isn't just an affectation, it's an essential part of Lolth's grand plan, and her priesthood is very well rewarded for maintaining it)Good drow are protected; in the sense that they're choice to be good does not give Lolth a license to directly intervene and exterminate them* (nor can she have drow hit squads teleport in and kill them). She can, generally, talk about how traitors should be punished, and reward drow and other servants who kill them, but she can't, directly, strike them down just for choosing to be good.  At the same time the gods can't just "free the drow". Peresefa and Dayna can explicitly bless the quests of individual drow to resist the taint (c.f. The Temple of Night and Day) but they can't just transform them. If they do manage to transform themselves it will have to, ultimately, be a personal act. One that has never successfully been performed before. (Good goal for a PC) Of course, once a couple of drow get away, relax and have babies then they're kids will get the same good-or-evil choice. And this is where Lolth gets the good stuff. After all, one or two traitors and you get a lot of info; an inept prayer or two and suddenly she's supporting her own followers (who've chosen evil). She can arrange for squads to come in, take out the whole community, set up a home base, kidnap/torture/convert the other kids, do horrible sorts of "object lesson" type things to other drow, everything. And if they "betray big" then it will be harder for drow to find sanctuary in the future. *=This has always bugged me. A prohibition on directly slaying them helps main "killing good drow" a management issue. If she has limited resources then it becomes a decision that makes more sense.If they're her direct servants and they rebel? I don't think it would be strange to just see that person suddenly collapse as they're consumed from the inside out by a massive horde of spiders.We've given our gods a sort of smite you with a lightning bolt if I want to feel I think we should be consistent about that, (even when we deviate it should be consistent)Shadar-kai are a kind of mirror drow, they gave themselves to Lauto/Hadeys because they knew that1. He can't an offer of something for nothing (or something for effectively nothing) and he keeps bargains. If the deal was "you can have us, eternal servitude and all, so long as we never have to serve Lolth again...". He'll keep that bargain. 2. As Lolth's original patron (she's still just a demi-goddess, admittedly an extremely power, devious one who was already extremely powerful before she got goddessed....) he's got power over her. He's too crafty and sneaky to be "tricked" out of control of them. And, whatever bad traits he may have, he's not a psychotic sadist. He doesn't lift a finger if there isn't some sort of payoff.Lolth, baby, Keep it down will you? I'm talking to a guy about a thing. The screaming... it's not helping my pitch sweetie... 3. We've talked about him giving them to Peresefa/Proserphones elsewhere. (It looks really bad to have your ex-girlfriends servants hanging around her palace). Of course, she thinks the whole thing is repulsive. (Lauto could break the connection because he's Lolths patron; if it matters.) Shadar-kai piercing and mortification is an attempt to demonstrate their devotion to her; it's the sort of thing Lolth would love. But Peresefa/Proserphones is not into it -- they want her to accept them for who they are, she can't (it's the stuff of teenage drama I suppose). They still are warped (so they're evil and sadistic and all that) but they aren't connected to Lolth directly.</blockquote>

Verification