new DM monster initiative tracking question

[dragonwarriorfan]

I'm a bit confused on tracking initiative. I'm running Dead by Dawn and this happens:

1. Two groups of zombies break into temple PCs are defending, so I assume they attack on surprise if they beat passive perceptions. So, monsters get a full round of actions?
2. Attack is resolved and all (PCs and DM roll initiative)?
3. The zombies then sort in, as usual?

Which might result in:

-PC #1
-PC #2
-Zombie Group 1
-PC #3
-Zombie Group 2
-PC #4

Thanks in advance for the answer and any other tips on beginning combat/initiative you can give!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, the DMG advises the DM to have monster initiative go by groups, as you're outlining. That is a good idea and really simplifies things.

As for what you do when initiating combat, you'd roll initiative before any combat actions take place. So before the surprise round. Any PC that is surprised simply doesn't act at all during the surprise round and grants CA (there are some feats etc that can mitigate that at higher levels).

I don't know exactly how this encounter is layed out, if it says "the party is surprised" then that's the situation. Normally surprise would usually involve some sort of Insight or Perception skill check to recognize the danger and avoid surprise. In the final analysis though the DM is pretty much in control of deciding if a situation warrants or allows surprise and to what degree it can be avoided.

So to answer specifically:

1) yes, the zombies would generally need to beat the PCs passive Perception with Stealth checks to get surprise.

2) Surprise rounds only allow one standard action, not a full round. Initiative is rolled before the surprise round and anyone surprised simply doesn't get to act at all. Some PCs may be surprised and others not surprised, it is on a character-by-character basis.

3) Since initiative should be established before the surprise round there isn't really any sorting in. Once the surprise round is over everyone gets their normal actions within the already established turn order.

 

[zoroaster100]

Since the characters are already in initiative when the zombies break in, I don't think they can gain surprise. If they succeed in Stealth checks, at best they might gain combat advantage if they charge in, but they probably won't succeed on Stealth checks while charging. And I don't think they have any standard actions that allow them to move stealthily and attack as part of the same action other than charging.

 

[Aulirophile]

Surprise implies a complete lack of readiness (i.e., attacking from Hidden or magically appearing out of thin air). If the PCs are actively engaged in a fight I'd find that a tough sell.

Initiative is rolled at the start of combat, even if there is a surprise round. You go through in the normal order, but people who are surprised cannot act during a surprise round and grant CA.

You only get one action during a surprise round. So you could attack, or charge, or move, or etc., but you can't move+charge, or move and attack, etc.,

Then yes, it continues as normal.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Since the characters are already in initiative when the zombies break in, I don't think they can gain surprise. If they succeed in Stealth checks, at best they might gain combat advantage if they charge in, but they probably won't succeed on Stealth checks while charging. And I don't think they have any standard actions that allow them to move stealthily and attack as part of the same action other than charging.

Hmmmm, well if we're talking about an ongoing combat then yes, there's no surprise round. In that case the new zombies would show up and if they were hidden before they showed up they would be able to make attacks with CA (charging would be the logical tactic). In that case I would just add them to the initiative order at the start of a round and have them act in their initiative like any other combatant.

 

[webrunner]

I don't think it's fair to have the monsters go by groups, because it means a players are more likely to take a ridiculous number of hits from a mob of monsters between player turns, giving the Leader no chance to, eg, heal.

 

[nightwyrm]

No one requires that you do monster initiatives by groups, but if your encounter have 3 standards, 2 elites and 12 minions, it's a bitch to roll and track individual initiatives for 17 monsters.

 

[Nullzone]

I don't think it's fair to have the monsters go by groups, because it means a players are more likely to take a ridiculous number of hits from a mob of monsters between player turns, giving the Leader no chance to, eg, heal.

I used to think this, and it's sometimes possible especially in an early round if a striker singles himself out (rogues at my tables are notorious for this). You simply have to make the choice to restrain yourself from completely obliterating a single player (but still make them regret the decision to move away from the safety of the defender!). Ultimately this often makes for much more engaging encounters as you can actually use the conditional and triggered effects of your monsters properly instead of finding them focus fired down one by one before you can get them into range. Dropping a player isn't always a bad thing as it gets the PCs to think twice about which enemies are truly threatening to the party's health, as well as considering their tactical positioning as a whole.

Your healer should still have plenty of time to react to a bad situation, and smart players should be able to cover until he can get there; good use of marks, liberal secondary effects to improve player defenses or restore a little hp, all these things help and players should learn to use them.

As always you have to play this by ear with your party, but I've come to really like the grouped initiative; it's faster and gives your players a challenge without feeling like they're being curbstomped.

 

[dragonwarriorfan]

In the case of this adventure, it is by design. For example, one of the encounters: First Wave includes 2 gravehounds, 2 zombie soldiers, and 4 zombie rotters. As written, you divide the monsters into two groups, then have them break into one of the 8 possible breach points. Its also a skill challenge, so on a failure 2 more rotters join in. So, let's see if I have this correct:

1. PCs are in the temple, shoring up defenses. It is very loud outside from the number of animated zombies trying to break in.
2. Everyone rolls initiative. Both zombies groups also roll.
3. Zombies break in as a surprise, since the noise would have drowned out their entrance unless PCs were standing at that entrance.
4. Surprise round goes off for all zombies and PCs not surprised.
5. Regular order starts
6. PC fails skill challenge, so a new group breaches. I think I'll have them breach at the end of the failing PCs turn as a surprise, then enter initiative there.

That seem reasonable?

 

[erleni]

As always you have to play this by ear with your party, but I've come to really like the grouped initiative; it's faster and gives your players a challenge without feeling like they're being curbstomped.

I agree. Just be careful that for some monsters group initiative can be a big advantage. Monsters that get additional bonuses when they gang-up on a target are very dangerous with group initiative, as PCs may not be able to the disengage before doom is spelled over them.