New DN rant -- The Faithless

[The Dungeon Nazi]

We've been talking about powergamers and munchkins and twinkies and everything, and I wanted to vent about another one of my new players (it helps to clear my head ).

He's been a good friend of mine for years, but has never gamed before, and his only experience with D&D is lots of Dragonlance novels. He swears by them and won't read anything FR despite anything I say, because DL is better and that's that (he's only joining up with my FR game because he's that desperate for a decent D&D experience). Because I know him so well, I'm afraid he takes some of my rulings personally, and gets upset with the "Because I'm the DN" concept.

As I've mentioned before, it's in Shadowdale, 1372 DR. He says, "I want to play a minotaur!" "No, but if it's a tank you want, roll up a half-orc or human barbarian from one of the Uthgardt tribes." "Why can't I play a minotaur?" "Because I'm the DN." (Usually I work in some sort of rational explanation before that, but it never seems to make a difference.)

Anyway, the guy himself is an atheist, and as such he insists that his character is one of "The Faithless". I explained the whole deal about how the gods have walked the Realms within the past decade or so, and most people there generally acknowledge the existence of the gods and show an affinity for one.

"I'll write up an original story about it. My whole family was killed and the gods didn't help, or something, so I don't worship any of them." I told him that that wasn't very original, and that I can't stand it when a player thinks that the only way to create a unique character is to do something like declare, "Well, I'm the first good drow to come to the surface!" or, in this case, "I'm unique because everybody else worships a god and I don't!" I did explain that his character doesn't have to worship his patron diety unless he's a divine spellcaster, but it wasn't enough. He wants faithless, understands that he can strike a deal and choose a god upon death, and now the only problem is that he's convinced I'll single him out for instant death out of spite.

It just bugs me that he doesn't bother to look into the Realms at all, instead trying to force his Dragonlance-based preconceptions into the game.

So anyway, he's constantly challenging me to bring all of these issues to this board -- "Why don't you ask and see what the people on the messageboard have to say, huh?!" So now that I've vented a little, you are now welcome to let fly opinions, suggestions, saber-rattling and rabble-rousing.

ADDED: A number of the suggestions popping up are to the effect of: "explain the rules to him and then just let him be faithless if he still wants it." I did explain everything to him, and I never had any plans to force him into any direction -- he's agnostic, but still considered faithless for the purposes of resurrection. The only thing that bothered me was the metagame reasoning behind his decision, but the fact that it bothers me is my problem. He just has one of those narrow-minded I-know-better-than-you attitudes that can grate on you after awhile. Luckily for him, I rain death upon all my PCs equally.

My main problem is his total lack of interest in the Realms -- I need to figure out a way to hook him into it, and I haven't been able to find something he's interested enough in to get him to check *something* out. Past Christmas and birthday gifts have included those nice, big, thick paperback editions of the Dark Elf and Icewind Dale trilogies, but he refuses to touch 'em because Dragonlance is better. How would you guys go about hooking a player like this into the Realms?

 

[Zappo]

Uhm... does he mean that his character doesn't worship any god (which is fine, if somewhat odd) or that he actually believes that gods don't exist? I'm an atheist IRL too, but not believing in gods in D&D is like not believing in gravity. It's not just a personality quirk, it's more like some minor form of madness. If he really wants to centre his character around that concept, he could play a planar character of the Athar faction. They believe that the powers aren't real gods - controllers of the afterlife, makers of the multiverse, the only reason to live and all - but simply very powerful outsiders, and so don't deserve to be worshipped. Planar characters are always interesting if played well.

For the minotaur issues, well, that's exactly what the DM is for - preventing people from playing characters that have no place in the setting.

If the player doesn't bother to read something about the Realms, and doesn't listen to you explaining, then he can't expect to understand why minotaur PCs in the Realms don't fit. If he doesn't want to make the effort to understand at least something about the setting, he has no right to complain when you say "No, because I said so".

Is that "strike a deal on the deathbed" thing real? I mean, is it somewhere in the FRCS? It sounds silly. IMC, people who die and didn't worship any god just end up on the plane that matches their alignment, as "generic" petitioners.

 

[The Dungeon Nazi]

The Athar faction -- somewhere in F&P or MotP?

I told him that the PC would have to be crazy to believe that there was never a Time of Troubles and that divine magic doesn't come from anywhere in particular. His response was that it was just a case of not feeling a particular attachment to any one god.

And yes, I understand the illogic behind not researching anything about the setting, discounting any explanation offered and huffing at "Because I said so." Perhaps I just don't have the time or energy to go into explaining the Realms to him on a deep enough level to convince him of anything, especially when I've handed him books and said, "Read this."?

As for the deal-striking, there's a section of "Running the Realms" in the FRCS dealing with players who die without a patron god. PC dies, and I roll a d10 to determine how many days he has to get raised before Kelemvor takes his soul and traps it in the Wall of the Faithless forever. To avoid having to deal with that time limit, the PC can choose a god upon death and become raised by all normal means from that point forward. It's all part of the "never punish a player for not having written down a patron deity" policy.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Your taking his religous attitude too far. If he wants to be a faithless then just let him.

Don't make an issue of it at all. Just let him know that the ability to raise him from the dead will be much more unlikely.

 

[Gizzard]

I can imagine why someone wouldn't enjoy reading the entire FRCS if they weren't into the setting; basically, if the guy hasnt made the effort to read, then its not worth pushing the point.

But, I think you can hit the high points of the setting in a couple paragraphs of explication -- "This is what everyone knows about FR." Perhaps you can assume he came from some isolated, small town and knows nothing of the politics or geography? In that case, his aetheist concept might work -- the only significant religious faction in the town worships a Dead God and he felt they were faking (but knew of no other alternatives.) Like Zappo said, not believing in gods in FR is a minor form of insanity; but thats only true if you know a minimum amount of history. In this case, ignorance can substitute.

OTOH, I also wouldnt have a problem saying, "Here are two gods who would possibly worship. Pick one," if I felt the player just needed a gentle shove in the right direction. But, if he really loves his aetheist concept and thinks its brilliant, I dont see any reason not to let him have it; taking it away will just cause grief. You might explain that the Faithless wont be the most popular people in FR, but if he wants to try, he's welcome to it.

The Minotaur is a big crock though and I would not let him play one at all.

 

[Don21584]

If he doesn't want to worship a single God, just have him "worship" Ao.

 

[Zappo]

The Athar faction -- somewhere in F&P or MotP?

I'm sorry, I should have added that it's AD&D 2nd edition stuff. Until the new Planescape 3e comes out, that is. Anyway, they are a bunch of fellows who think the powers are frauds, they have lots of power but don't deserve worship, and if there is a "real" God, then it's unknowable and unknown. Some of them worship the Great Unknown and even get spells, so they might have a point.

Not even them try to deny the existance of the powers. That's just plainly delusionary. It would be somewhat justified only for a low-level character coming from a very backwater town, but after seeing what the party cleric can do, and after learning about the Times of Trouble, one would have to be crazy to still say that gods don't exist.

The fact that he hasn't even read the FR novels before stating that DL is better (btw, I think he's right - but I did read some FR novels and played through all the Bioware games), and the fact that he immediately asked, and insisted, to play a minotaur, make me suspect that your issues with this player aren't over.

 

[med stud]

Tell him:
"It seems like you dont want to play. I wont force you."

Basically, from what you have said, this player sounds like a big kid that is hellent on not compromising. I mean, with all the work you, as DN, is putting down, I dont think it's much to demand that he cooperates to a degree.

On the atheist thing; I wouldnt stop him. It could be explained by some very strange compulsive behaviour from the PCs part.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

1) He should not be able to play a minotaur if a minotaur could not concievably get into the adventuring group or a minotaur is too powerful for the group. Same goes for every race, class, alignment or culture.

2) If neither of the above apply, (i.e. faithless are beheaded at birth, or they are too powerful) he can play a faithless if he wants. Just screw him over when he dies. Never block a PC from doing a stupid act. Inform him of the potential problems that may arise, and then let him screw himself over.

 

[Zappo]

CB, when we say "faithless" we mean simply "atheist". It's not some weird template. The player wants to play an atheist and we mostly agree that an atheist in a realm full of divine magic and which has suffered the Time of Troubles is a very unlikely person and possibly insane.

Your post has made me notice something - if the player wanted to play a minotaur, it means that the campaign must be of a high enough level to allow minotaurs. IIRC, a minotaur is EL +8 (probably wrong)? Anyway, if it is so, the campaign must be at least 9th level.

It seems next to impossible to me that a character, any character, has reached 9th level in D&D without ever encountering obvious and undeniable proof of the existance of gods.