New DN rant -- The Faithless

[Darkness]

He's new, so don't be too upset about his behavior.

Myself, I'd just tell him the exact consequences of his choices and then let him decide if he still wishes to do what he proposed.

 

[Zappo]

I am well aware of what a faithless is. And no, you don't necessarily have to be insane to be faithless. You can believe that the beings that choose to manifest themselves are not gods for many reasons (because they can be killed, because of Ao, whatever...).

Sorry. In your first post, the examples "faithless are beheaded at birth" and "faithless are too powerful" made me think that you were thinking about some kind of template, because I don't see how can you tell at birth if someone is an atheist, and I don't think an atheist character can be in any way different power-wise from any other character.

It is not that far of a stretch for an uninformed person to believe that the gods are actually really powerful outsiders who pretend to be gods. It's also not that far of a stretch for a person to disbelieve the rumors that everyone else seems to believe in. I mean, even if somebody had direct contact with the avatar of a god, they could always say afterwards that it was not a "true god" because gods do not meddle with the world of men.

Yes! That's what I suggested in my first post, when I said that the character could belong to the Athar planescape faction. They believe the powers are not "true" gods - not because they are uninformed (all the opposite), but because it's their philosophy. But they don't deny their existance.

But the player apparently wanted a character who actually believes that there are no powers and no gods. In FR there is plenty, plenty of evidence to the contrary. Unlike Dragonlance, I'll add, where the gods have been away for centuries and noone can resurrect the dead.

Finally, no, there's nothing wrong with playing a deranged character in D&D, but will the player acknowledge this - that his character is mad? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

[The Dungeon Nazi]

Myself, I'd just tell him the exact consequences of his choices and then let him decide if he still wishes to do what he proposed.

That's the plan. I just figured it'd be a neat little way for him to invest something of his character into the Realms, to help ground the PC in Faerun and keep him from being a character you'd find in just any setting.

 

[Storm Raven]

CB, when we say "faithless" we mean simply "atheist". It's not some weird template. The player wants to play an atheist and we mostly agree that an atheist in a realm full of divine magic and which has suffered the Time of Troubles is a very unlikely person and possibly insane.

Or he could just not believe that the Time of Troubles is evidence that the beings involved are divine or worthy of worship. They could just be very powerful beings who like to be adultated by those they consider inferior. In a reality in which individuals as powerful as Elminster and Storm Silverhand are present and mortals, why should there be any real reason why someone could not logically decide that Cyric is just another powerful adventurer who happens to have a bad attitude.

It seems next to impossible to me that a character, any character, has reached 9th level in D&D without ever encountering obvious and undeniable proof of the existance of gods.

He could have undeniable proof of the power of beings who allegendly call themselves gods, but that is not the same as proof that they are divine. I find it very easy to believe that individuals in the D&D universe would disbelieve in the divinity of gods.

Sure Charles the Cleric can heal people, but so can Bob the Bard. Sure, Charles might be able to cast Miracle and accomplish great things, but William the Wizard can accomplish much the same thing with his Wish spell. Charles says his powers come from some divine being worthy of worship, but why must that be if William and Bob can do similar stuff without the theologicial claptrap that accompanies Charles' whizz bang powers? In point of fact, in such an environment, not only do I find it possible that someone would not believe in the divinity of the gods, I find it likely

 

[Paladin]

As an alternative rule (Leopold's post made me think of this), how about if a character is truly Faithless, then no God will allow his worshippers healing spells to affect him? Kind of a, "You don't believe I exist, why should I care if you do?" scenario.... Just my two coppers.....

 

[Hennet]

Agnosticism in D&D

Kudos, Storm Raven--those are interesting ideas.

Along similar lines, I could easily imagine an order of monks who believe perfection comes through mastering the self and they might well reject the worship of the FR pantheon. They would see gods as distractions unworthy of worship.

Similarly, there could easily be religions (nature or death-centered, perhaps others) that teach that the ultimate goal of the soul is to become egoless and...dissolve. A sort of Nirvana like state where the soul looses any sense of individual identity and becomes one with the multi-verse, rather than incarnating as a petitioner. Those folk might very well reject the FR gods as interfering with their ultimate freedom. They might see the Wall of the Faithless as a metaphor for the purification they must endure to lose their attachments to self.

Or he could just be a nut.

 

[Henry]

First of all - let him be atheist. No harm in that, until it comes time for resurrections.

Second - if you want him to get invested in Forgotten Realms, then you can try three things:

1) Find out if either Margaret Weis or Tracy Hickman have every played in or enjoy play in the Forgotten Realms campaigns.

2) Make a one-page write up describing the general area of the Realms that you will be playing in, including major cities, geographic wonders, etc. DO NOT GO OVER ONE PAGE IN LENGTH.

3) As you play, be sure to make references to places, events, and peoples that occur in the Realms. If the player asks about them, tell him that you will explain after the game; the other players will likely have enough info to make good decisions, anyway. Eventually, he will get tired of asking about these things and possibly start reading up on them himself.

Good luck!

 

[Jezrael]

Or he could just not believe that the Time of Troubles is evidence that the beings involved are divine or worthy of worship. They could just be very powerful beings who like to be adultated by those they consider inferior. In a reality in which individuals as powerful as Elminster and Storm Silverhand are present and mortals, why should there be any real reason why someone could not logically decide that Cyric is just another powerful adventurer who happens to have a bad attitude.



[/B]

Well, technically Cyric is just another adventurer with a bad attitude (and a couple of Divine portfolios)

 

[Storm Raven]

Well, technically Cyric is just another adventurer with a bad attitude (and a couple of Divine portfolios)

That's one of the reasons I picked him as an example. Think about it, if Cyric can colorably claim to be a god, how dubious does that make the claims of other "divine beings" like Bane, Correllon and Gruumsh?

 

[Paladin]

That's one of the reasons I picked him as an example. Think about it, if Cyric can colorably claim to be a god, how dubious does that make the claims of other "divine beings" like Bane, Correllon and Gruumsh?

Actually, Bane attained godhood in a similar manner to Cyric, so he's not so "pure" himself